Bride-finding solution

[Aquitaine]

Put this in the 1.04 suggestions thread but that thread is swamped with different discussions, and I was hoping to actually have some about this.

I've been thinking a lot about the marriage situation, both in terms of what works about it now, and what is a feasible improvement that does not require massive overhauls. If the devs are already in the midst of massive overhauls, then this matters less, but I've found what I think is a reasonable compromise between 'improvement' and 'too much effort' that also discards one of the things that doesn't really fit now.

Everyone's already talked about the amount of time it takes to find suitable matches, so I won't go into detail. Let's assume that everyone on these forums knows it's faster to alt-tab out and use the BrideFinder, or we just don't care and find the first available match.

Another aspect that I think doesn't work that hasn't been touched on is the 'accept/refuse' aspect. Similar to vassalization, this is a black box where people have theories on what works and what doesn't, and it seems to be centered around prestige. But by definition, the characters you are marrying off can't have any. If you give them titles so they can obtain prestige, then you can no longer marry them off. Yes, you could appoint them stewards and so on, and then wait for the events, but even so, they hardly ever get very much. Basing marriage off of a factor that doesn't really apply to the characters involved seems to me rather unnecessary. Also -- with marriage, unlike vassalization, I guarantee that everyone just sits there and continues to try until they get what they want, brides being such a valuable commodity. This is a lot of wasted energy and clicks and is extremely frustrating.

You could add more events to control the prestige of your offspring, but that's fixing a symptom. Not the underlying problem.

So what I suggest that goes after both of the above issues is an in-game bridefinder event sequence that you initiate. You elect to 'find a match' for one of your characters -- in your dynasty or not, it doesn't really matter; I think the reason why we only control directly the marriages of people in our dynasty was to reduce marriage proposal spam, but there's no reason why this solution couldn't apply to anyone in your court. You then tell the game some basic criteria, and maybe you can pick one or two priorities; first, you give it a minimum age, and the lower, the more expensive. Second, you tell it to prioritize something like stewardship or diplomacy. Maybe you can give it a second criterion (health?) But the more specific you get, the more money you have to spend on what is presumably sending out your royal matchmaker to interrogate princesses all over Europe. This procedure takes a mean time of two weeks to a month, at the end of which it triggers an automatic marriage proposal between a target that fits your criteria and your courtier/offspring.

This fixes the following problems:
- No silly repetitive clicking based on factors you can't control
- No checking every single county
- You have some say over your bride's stats (more if you are powerful and rich) but you don't actually see them until the proposal, and you don't know how good they are relative to other people in Europe

You should still be allowed to directly marry anyone in your own court, or, if you know of an existing bride, manually 'target' that one somehow -- this is for the rare case in which the player knows ahead of time exactly what bride/groom (s)he wants. But the rest of the time, I think the above 'fire and forget' sequence is ideal, since it doesn't involve a huge overhaul, means you can only have one bride-locator sequence going at a time, and it's still something of a crapshoot. But it's not mindless tedium.

-Aq

[r907]

I'd say a ledger where you can sort brides by their age/skills would be very nice.

[Aquitaine]

That's tempting, but the problem there is that you always get the best one. That's not really a gameplay choice if you always go for the top slot in a list. The in-game bride-finder leaves an element of chance and is consistent with the immersion factor in the rest of the game - you have some, but not complete control over major decisions.

[horragoth]

Originally Posted by Aquitaine

That's tempting, but the problem there is that you always get the best one. That's not really a gameplay choice if you always go for the top slot in a list. The in-game bride-finder leaves an element of chance and is consistent with the immersion factor in the rest of the game - you have some, but not complete control over major decisions.

In 1.03 it is not guaranteed. The AI is far more reluctant to marry best ones off.

[Aquitaine]

It's reluctant but the reluctance is part of the irritating issue that's solved with this system. When you find the bride you want, you're going to keep trying until you get it, and you will eventually get it, every time. The fact that you really have no control over the possibility just serves to annoy the player and has no intrinsic gameplay value.

[Pseudodragon]

I like the concept. Having perfect information and control makes things too easy and less fun. I'm unclear how it'll work out though. So what happens when a princess is picked by the bridefinder? Does automatic proposal mean automatic acceptance or just makes a proposal you can accept/turn down? If it's the first choice, doesn't that mean that you'd lose the ability to control your daughters marriages if she happens to be on the top of the list? And if it's the second, how does that change the current system if people can still decline proposal after proposal? It sounds like a more fun way of bridefinding, but you still need a better acceptance/refuse routine than currently exists.

I think that basing acceptance of prestige is a bad idea too. Maybe father's prestige would be better? Your nephews and nieces would still be hard to marry off since their father's a nobody, but your sons and daughters would share your prestige.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by Aquitaine

Put this in the 1.04 suggestions thread but that thread is swamped with different discussions, and I was hoping to actually have some about this.

- Sounds like an interesting proposal not unlike those made before 1.02 for automating bridefinding, and probably just as likely to be implemented due to the requirements for new interface interaction not already covered.

Additionally, since you are proposing the removal of the opportunity to target specific females outside your own court for marriage (except those found through your proposed routine), something that many players like, I will have to classify the whole as a bad idea, so long as that part is in place. Trying to extend functionality and aid players in fighting annoyance (as is your main idea) is good, cutting away functionality to prevent people from doing something they like is not.

Put in a system that when over 25 the character goes and finds their own wife (using existing AI system) and then you can yes/no the marriage with loyalty consequences.

[Patrucio]

I dislike the idea of the bridefinder program and oppose any formal inclusion of it into CK. What is easier is not always better, and I think one fundamental challenge of the game is trying to find good matches. I think the only proper way to do it is the old fashion way- turn over every stone and look. The Bridefinder program destroys one of the fundamental challenges of the game. Including some variation of it into a future update would be a grave error.

[Zander]

That is in no way a challenge. It does not test or require any skill or knowledge. It is simply a test of patience.

As long as the information is available in the game (stats, though not health and fertility, for every character in the game), there is no good reason not to make it available in one central and readily accessible place: a sortable ledger, for example. Making you click through hundreds of countries to get the same information is not "challenging" - only "time-consuming".

[Aquitaine]

I'm not advocating the removal of the existing system where you can target an individual:

Originally Posted by Aquitaine

You should still be allowed to directly marry anyone in your own court, or, if you know of an existing bride, manually 'target' that one somehow

I also don't think there is a significant UI update for this, since the 'marriage proposal' screen already exists. This seems to me far less work than any other suggestion that has come up so far.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally Posted by Aquitaine

I'm not advocating the removal of the existing system where you can target an individual:

Ah, my pardon then. Your statement was open for misinterpretation, since you seemed to be suggesting that the direct marriage currently used should only be usable in your own court, with some other method available for foreign courts in which you might know of existing brides. (Well, you must mean potential brides)

You should still be allowed to directly marry anyone in your own court, or, if you know of an existing bride, manually 'target' that one somehow -- this is for the rare case in which the player knows ahead of time exactly what bride/groom (s)he wants.

(My highlighting)

If what you meant was: The current system is still available to be used at any time by anybody, then my objections fall.

[MegaPIMP]

Bridefinders in all honor, but what about forced marriage as a peace deal?
So, your sister do not agree with you on the marriage between she and your excellent marshall? Invade her realm and force her then! She might not be happy at first, but diamonds heal all wounds(except the mortal ones).
Call Bride buster now for more information! Bust-a-bride-001

And a other useful thing about it, you could use it as punishment!
Is your neighbour taking all that good land, or maybe letting his pets take a leak 2on the other side of the fence", then invade him, strip him of YOUR land and force him to marry the most ugly woman in your realm!(Hopefully a old on at that, but not so old that he'll be rid of her in awhile!)

Oh yes, I'm evil...muahhaa, but how am I supposed to Pimp out all those finnish pagans that keep invading my court?

[Aquitaine]

Re: Peter, yes, that's what I meant. My apolgies for not making it more clear. Although I don't approve of endlessly hitting 'request marriage' even when you manually target someone. I could see a solution, like, you only can 'see' the courts of your vassals, lieges, or allies, and perhaps you could send your bride-finder to another court just to scope it out instead of going to find a match. And in cases where you can see everyone in the court, the player's request would be automatically approved (unless it's MP, in which case two players would, of course, get the choice). That would be a pretty flexible, but efficeint system.

[Brownbeard]

how bout a series of bride finding events?

ie. the king organizes a grand ball inviting the princesses throughout europe. the best one catches the princes eye, but runs away at midnight due to certain reasons. while she was running, she lost a shue, the prince picks it up and goes looking for her...

[Jinnai]

Originally Posted by Zander

That is in no way a challenge. It does not test or require any skill or knowledge. It is simply a test of patience.

Exactly. Patience. No one back then had some central achives. They either had to hunt around or make choices based on politics or some other way. Either way, it wasn't easy and required patience.

I know however people will continue to use bridefinder tools even if they are unofficial. My poposal is to simply put a 1 month waiting period between requests with a penalty each time its denied (min of 0%) that applies to 2 particular characters or 2 rulers if you think that will make save files too large (penalty would be less severe though and temporary, like only 1 year or so if the latter is the case).

[NeilJT]

I think the ideal would be something like this:

Richard Couer de Lion wishes a wife, and to secure his southern borders... knowing that the king of Navarre has a number of daughters he sends his mother to the Court of Navarre to asses which is most suitable. She decides upon Berengaria of Navarre, who she brings to Richard and they are married...

So - in game (probably have to wait for CK2)

When someone within a ruler's close family wishes to marry he can go to a screen which displays courts likely to have eligable brides / husbands. He can then choose a courtier to go to a court and search out a bride / husban - that person will choose a partner based on an algorithm assesing reletive character traits (of themselves, the ruler and the prospective bride), stats, and prestige/piety... They will then report that person back to the ruler who can choose to marry her, or take a prestiege hit.

For courtiers I think something like the present system is fine, although one should be able to propose marriage for everyone in your court, and marriages of courtiers between non-territorially linked (either in the same domain, or sharing a border) should be more likely to be rejected.

[Aquitaine]

Originally Posted by Jinnai

Exactly. Patience. No one back then had some central achives. They either had to hunt around or make choices based on politics or some other way. Either way, it wasn't easy and required patience.

I know however people will continue to use bridefinder tools even if they are unofficial. My poposal is to simply put a 1 month waiting period between requests with a penalty each time its denied (min of 0%) that applies to 2 particular characters or 2 rulers if you think that will make save files too large (penalty would be less severe though and temporary, like only 1 year or so if the latter is the case).

I'm not interested in acting like I'm back then and spending days at a time finding a bride. I'm interested in playing a game that immerses me in the time period. There is a tremendous difference between 'realism' and 'immersion.' Having authentic dynasties with real-life characters and historical traits and borders resembling something like 1066, that's immersive realism. But you also couldn't raise your entire country's army in one day or 'pause' -- you'd send out riders to raise an army over several months. That's realistic, but it sucks for gameplay reasons.

I'm willing to be patient in terms of waiting for an event sequence that I initiatied while I'm playing the game. I'm not willing to be patient by clicking on every single county in the game, trying to find a bride. The fact that people are using unofficial bridefinders is obvious evidence that the way it is now is broken. I think the solution as presented is certainly no more complicated that some of the stuff they already put in 1.03.

-Aq

[Jinnai]

Originally Posted by Aquitaine

I'm not interested in acting like I'm back then and spending days at a time finding a bride. I'm interested in playing a game that immerses me in the time period. There is a tremendous difference between 'realism' and 'immersion.' Having authentic dynasties with real-life characters and historical traits and borders resembling something like 1066, that's immersive realism. But you also couldn't raise your entire country's army in one day or 'pause' -- you'd send out riders to raise an army over several months. That's realistic, but it sucks for gameplay reasons.

I'm willing to be patient in terms of waiting for an event sequence that I initiatied while I'm playing the game. I'm not willing to be patient by clicking on every single county in the game, trying to find a bride. The fact that people are using unofficial bridefinders is obvious evidence that the way it is now is broken. I think the solution as presented is certainly no more complicated that some of the stuff they already put in 1.03.

-Aq

Not to burst your bubble, but that won't be happening. Its like using the csc with any_XXX plus some and those eat up reources with just one event firing on high-end systems.
Now image a dozen or so events...esp on ones that just meet the games req.
Not gonna happen....
My proposal atleast is implimental...ie you can't spam so easy as you haveto wait a month between chances for the same pair. I'd also make it so you couldn't offer more than 1 person on your end to more than 1 person at a time on another end while also making it so that the person on the other end cannot be offered by more than 1 person in a court at a time. Then failure would lower ratings to them if possible, if that's not possible for everyone then it should be that those two indivisuals become unmarriable for atleast 1 year.
But i'd also say forcing marriage as an option should be possible via war, but the higher on the totem pole for succession and the better the stats then the more it'd be worh.

[DGM]

Originally Posted by Aquitaine

That's tempting, but the problem there is that you always get the best one. That's not really a gameplay choice if you always go for the top slot in a list. The in-game bride-finder leaves an element of chance and is consistent with the immersion factor in the rest of the game - you have some, but not complete control over major decisions.

That's easily solved: implement the ledger with sorting by anything you want, and make the player wait for a year after a refusal - which eliminates getting what you want by spamming the AI with requests.

That way, you will find the brides you want instantaneously (no more tedious province-clicking), and then have to make a strategic choice: "Should I wait for a year to get another chance at babes A and B who just turned me down, or is my need to have kids now more important so I'll go for babe C?"