To Jinnai in regards to selectable Japan daimyos

[Blitzkrieg]

I apologize for posting this here but PM has length limitation so it's easier for me to make one long post for Jinnai.

Ashikaga family established what's called Muromachi shogunate (1338-1573) although the power of Ashikaga family starts to wane rapidly 1450 or so. 1467-1568 is about when sengoku jidai starts where everyone attacks anyone more or less. Onin war starts around 1467-68.

I have not played eu2 for a while, I don't even have it installed on any of my systems anymore so I don't know how big of a Japanese map do you have. Another problem you are facing is depending on time selection, date masamune, although one of the best known general/daimyo during late sengoku jidai is not exactly on the map at the beginning of sengoku jidai. Some families can trace their family back longer but some of the powerful daimyo during middle to late sengoku jidai isn't exactly that well known initially. An example is Toki family was overthrown by their own retainer, Saito, who married his daughter to Oda Nobunaga. Saito was himself probably killed by his own son. That gives you some idea how brutal, treacherous that period is as tales of sibling killing each other (Oda killed his own brother, Takeda Shingen overthrew his own father, too many examples), or offspring kill their own parents, etc. Oda's family was retainer themselves early and overthrew their own master. If we don't take that into consideration, I propose some of the more well known daimyo to be considered

I may edit this post if I am forced to quit soon but I'll come back and edit the list.

Oda Nobunaga (around Owari)

Asai nagamasa (around Omi, Oda's brother in law until he turned against Oda)

Rokkaku Takayori (around Omi/Iga region)

Asakura Toshikage (around Echizen). He defeated the Shiba family and become more or less the first sengoku jidai daimyo in some scholar's eyes.

Hojo Soun (around Izu). Considered 1st sengoku jidai daimyo in many scholar's eyes. Hojo's family has been exerting influence either behind the scenes or more or less outright power play since the first minamoto shogunage married Hojo's daughter. Kamakura shogunate was first influenced by Hojo family, after the first Kamakura shogunate died, Hojo family more or less assumed control. If they are more competent later, they are probably the ones to unify Japan given their long history rather than upstarts like Oda, Toyotomi (who wsan't even from a daimyo family but a footsoldier's son, unlike Oda and Tokugawa who are at least daimyo by birth) and Tokugawa)

Suzuki (around Ise)

Hosokawa Shogakuji (around Yamato/Kyoto area).

Mori Motonari (around southern end of Honshu)

Uesugi Kenshin (Etchu area)

Takenda Shingen (start at kai and expand to shinano)

Saito (Mino area)

Miyoshi (around kyoto area and parts of shigoku)

Ujita Tadaie

Chosokabe (tosa)

Amago Tsunehisa (Izumi)


A good place to look for some information on this period is here

[Jinnai]

Thanks! This helps a whole lot!

BTW if you have a list of rulers and other memebnrs (espically dates) for the verious daimyo that would be great.

[Blitzkrieg]

What areas of Japan are you working with?

If it's only kyushu area (based on some posts I read), shimazu is probably the most well known daimyo in that area.

I read a variety of history. I spent quite a bit of time reading about WW1, WW2, and east asia, especially China. I learned about Japan mostly through college course (a semester devoted to pre and after meiji era with focus around meiji) and my own reading of Japanese history during the more well known periods, such as kempei war, or the later sengoku jidai. I didn't spend as much time to read the period from early ashikaga to beginning of sengoku jidai. I also have gap after Tokugawa Ieyasu until before Meiji restoration. I do have some knowledge past Tokugawa but it ends as soon as my Date Masamune biography ends so...

I know a lot more about China than Japan so not sure if you need help on China. You might be interested in this I am holding my judgement on this. I think it's possible but until I see more concrete proof, I will treat it as a possibility and definitely worth considering but not yet eliminate reasonable doubts I have purchased the book and read it, its explaination on those ancient Chinese/European map is fairly logical. The only thing that bothers me is authenticity of those maps. Are those maps really what they are claimed by author? I don't doubt author's method of manipulation of map, it's just I want to make sure those discovered European map of the world are what they claim they are.

[Sun_Zi_36]

yea china, like japan is undergoing major overhaul. some preliminary changes are implemented and other things being worked on, but i m basically caught up by real life for the time and cant work on it much. basically help is needed to script up things where there is pretty much agreement about the historical interpretation. there are some other discussions which wasnt very conclusive. you are welcome to contribute anywhere you like, some recent discussions about the area include changing bonuses for religions, the far east thread and whether far east should start with higher tech thread.

[Blitzkrieg]

I'll try to read it later, not enough time

[Jinnai]

I know you told me it had been a while since you played EU2 and forgotten how japan was decided so here's a map:

Anyway I was considering giving the defacto and dying Ashikaga Shogunate in Kansai (686) unplayable by humans (without editing savegame and it wouldn't be suggested).

I was wanting to have the provinces devided into singular units of which the player choses 1 of the 1 province Shogunates in either Tohoku (684), Kanto (685), Shokoku (687) or Kyushu (688).

I was wanting to put Ezochi (683) and any player created colonies and conquests out of this (i'd like in fact to release any conquests back to their country of origin, but i don't think that will go over well). The main reason is to make sure this is a battle just between the mainland and once all the mainland is controlled/owned you will auaotmaically get Ezochi and any other terriroties in the outside area.

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally Posted by Jinnai

I know you told me it had been a while since you played EU2 and forgotten how japan was decided so here's a map:

Anyway I was considering giving the defacto and dying Ashikaga Shogunate in Kansai (686) unplayable by humans (without editing savegame and it wouldn't be suggested).

I was wanting to have the provinces devided into singular units of which the player choses 1 of the 1 province Shogunates in either Tohoku (684), Kanto (685), Shokoku (687) or Kyushu (688).

I was wanting to put Ezochi (683) and any player created colonies and conquests out of this (i'd like in fact to release any conquests back to their country of origin, but i don't think that will go over well). The main reason is to make sure this is a battle just between the mainland and once all the mainland is controlled/owned you will auaotmaically get Ezochi and any other terriroties in the outside area.

Ok, some provinces are "easy" to give to daimyo, some aren't.

kyushu - Shimazu, one of the best known one and fairly powerful too. I guess if time period is earlier, perhaps consider omin or something.

shikoku - tosa's chosokabe motochika is the best choice.

tohoku - date masamune is one of the best known one. If that is too late, consider uesugi kenshin or even Hojo family.

Hokkaido - don't remember any famous daimyo in that area, perhaps date masamune but not really.

Problems are kantou and kansai. Kantou is pretty big, even including settsu/Yamato area. Kansai should belong to others such as Mori Motonari or Amago Tsunehisa, Ukita, or Ouchi clan are all known in that area. Kantou area has a lot of candidates, from Oda Nobunaga, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Takeda Shingen, Asakura, Rokkaku Hojo, and Uesugi as Kantou and Kansai are really very big. Traditionally, some of Kantou and part of Kansai in this map belongs to Kyoto area. Heck, part of Mori's power base was called Chugoku (middle kingdom, just like china and write exactly the same).

[Jinnai]

Yea i admit some like Kantou are fairly big. If Inferis ever gets done hacking the map kantou for sure will be divided. Probably other provinces as well except maybe Ezochi which had little settlement in that era.

You see the problem though. I knew about Mori and Hojo and wanted to include them as well as Takeda, but if i were to include Oda then that becomes all but impossible for anyone except maybe Mori. Tokogowa while it would be nice to add them because historic path done by having Oda win the battles until the assaniation it wouldn't be as nessary.

[Blitzkrieg]

Hmm, what do you have in mind?

I remember eu2 has leaders + king...your king provide dip/mil/adm bonus points, boosting your tech research or higher chance of diplomatic success. You may also get a general with the same name as your king if I remember correctly, like gustov, sulemin, frederick, etc. are all insane generals.

Solution to that is only provide a few daimyo as "king" that player can select while include "leaders" of those famous historical figures from those regions.

For example, give kansai initially to amago. If player select to play amago, he'll get mori, ukita, kikkawa, kobakawa, yamanaka, etc. as generals. Next ruler can be Mori, etc.

Same applies with Kanto area. Player can select say Oda Nobunaga and get toyotomi hideyoshi (or hashiba hideyoshi as toyotomi changed his name twice, from kishita toyoshiro to hashiba hideyoshi to toyotomi hideyoshi. Hashiba was a made up last name, combining shibata katsuie and another famous oda retainer's last name together to form hashiba) tokugawa, etc. as generals and some of them can be ruler after oda.

I don't know how you are going to make events. If player choose ashikaga victory and prevent onin war, perhaps all those leaders and rulers will be sleeped, etc.

[Jinnai]

The onin wars will not be avoided entirely. They can be to some extent, but Ashikaga Yoshimasa wasn't exactly the qualitfied ruler. He was far more into the arts than he was into ruling and retired rather early. Even chosing no sides results in turmoil as then there is no clear successor.

Thus when the event pops up, Ashikaga shogunate is not meant to survive. In fact I may replace it with Mori clan.

I do like your idea though about the leaders, but it still doesn't solve one problem. I really think the Hojo clan should have a chance, more than any other group besides Oda/Tokogowa and your statements in the above posts reinforced that idea.

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally Posted by Jinnai

The onin wars will not be avoided entirely. They can be to some extent, but Ashikaga Yoshimasa wasn't exactly the qualitfied ruler. He was far more into the arts than he was into ruling and retired rather early. Even chosing no sides results in turmoil as then there is no clear successor.

Thus when the event pops up, Ashikaga shogunate is not meant to survive. In fact I may replace it with Mori clan.

I do like your idea though about the leaders, but it still doesn't solve one problem. I really think the Hojo clan should have a chance, more than any other group besides Oda/Tokogowa and your statements in the above posts reinforced that idea.

Yeah, Ashikaga wasn't alone. Imagawa was powerful, until he indulged in the finer aspect of life...trying to imitate kyoto court and even paint some of his teeth black or something, end result, lost to Oda Nobunaga in one of the more famous battles during sengoku jidai where oda's small army took advantage of surprise and storm managed to overcome Imagawa's army and even cut off Imagawa's head.

Perhaps player are given a choice, path of Hojo yields some econ bonus to reflect the fact Hojo clan has a fairly large land compare to Oda, Takeda, etc. until they caught up. Hojo -> Imagawa route will mean players gets some cash but worse slider setting and no good generals from Oda, etc. After all, Oda was faced with either defeat Imagawa or his head might be the one on the pole instead of Imagawa. Tokugawa had to fight Takeda or face either submission or death. Choosing the path of Oda/Toyo/Tokugawa is more historical.

Hojo squandered their chance, they played diplomacy badly. Honestly, except Hojo Soun, other Hojo after him weren't exactly remarkable to say the least.

shimazu was the first one to start using muskets if I remember correctly.

If you want Hojo family to play a part, put them in Tohoku and let Date take over as time comes around as the daimyo/king. I just don't feel right to have Hojo replacing Oda. It will sure be very ahistorical choice. Historically, Hojo's retainers kinda suck. If it's not for their substantial land holding, Hojo would've been overrun by Uesugi, Takeda clans. Heck, even Imagawa can give Hojo some problems. Imagawa at least has asahina, etc. as retainers, I have trouble recalling any remarkable retainer from the Hojo.

[Jinnai]

It all depends on who what you chose. As i said I really wish Inferis would finish his program. Then i could add Hojo, Takeda, etc. without a problem.

If you want Hojo family to play a part, put them in Tohoku and let Date take over as time comes around as the daimyo/king. I just don't feel right to have Hojo replacing Oda. It will sure be very ahistorical choice. Historically, Hojo's retainers kinda suck. If it's not for their substantial land holding, Hojo would've been overrun by Uesugi, Takeda clans. Heck, even Imagawa can give Hojo some problems. Imagawa at least has asahina, etc. as retainers, I have trouble recalling any remarkable retainer from the Hojo.

Yes but its the player's choice which to chose and i don't want to purposefully make one clan so suck assed they won't want to be played except if i keep them the Ashikaga or the outside areas i will put in reserve.

So there would have to be something each one would have an advantage at, even if its not a long-term advantage.

[Blitzkrieg]

I see, I just want to make sure Hojo won't crowd out some other famous daimyo, such as uesugi, takeda, tokugawa, imagawa, saito, asakura, asai nagamasa, rokkaku, etc.

[Isaac Brock]

We need a version that works with the current map. Nice to consider how it could be improved with a 'better' map, but it has to work with the current map.

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg

Solution to that is only provide a few daimyo as "king" that player can select while include "leaders" of those famous historical figures from those regions.

For example, give kansai initially to amago. If player select to play amago, he'll get mori, ukita, kikkawa, kobakawa, yamanaka, etc. as generals. Next ruler can be Mori, etc.

Same applies with Kanto area. Player can select say Oda Nobunaga and get toyotomi hideyoshi (or hashiba hideyoshi as toyotomi changed his name twice, from kishita toyoshiro to hashiba hideyoshi to toyotomi hideyoshi. Hashiba was a made up last name, combining shibata katsuie and another famous oda retainer's last name together to form hashiba) tokugawa, etc. as generals and some of them can be ruler after oda.

I wouldn't want to see Daimyo who were mutually hostile serving under one another. Doesn't make much sense, so this approach needs to be adopted with care. Hideyoshi serving Nobunaga is fine, but others could be problematic.

By the way, what's wrong with "Hideyoshi"? He's famous enough, and certainly known by that name. Doesn't need two names for players to know who he is. A lot of the others do need more identification, but long names often don't fit in the window, so be careful!

[Blitzkrieg]

Problem is those daimyos are friends one day, enemies the next....examples are everywhere...

oda allied with uesugi against takeda. uesugi then broke relationship with oda when oda's stronger.

asai were against oda until oda married his sister to asai nagamasa. later, asai's father and retainers made asai to turn against oda.

tokugawa's father (matsu something, tokugawa's original last name was maybe matsuhei or something) fought with oda's family. Later on, they become closest allies and is one of the rare alliances during that time that withstood many tests.

oda was even allied with takeda and had marriage with takeda (oda's daughter married takeda's favorite son, takeda katsuyori I think).

there aren't too many bloood enemies during that time..oda versus hongajin is one. oda and saito was enemy, friend, enemy relationship...I guess oda and asakura never really got along either.

[Jinnai]

Yep this would work so much better under CK engine, but on well.

Well give me who you suggest bearing in mind Oda or Tokogowa will be one (i can change flags easily, but changing names requires a new id which i don't want to use).

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally Posted by Jinnai

Yep this would work so much better under CK engine, but on well.

Well give me who you suggest bearing in mind Oda or Tokogowa will be one (i can change flags easily, but changing names requires a new id which i don't want to use).

Tell me who are the must include and which territory. Also, some rough idea about event/succesion line and I can provide you with a list.

[Isaac Brock]

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg

Problem is those daimyos are friends one day, enemies the next....examples are everywhere...

I know that this is a huge problem. But I think it's pretty awful if two guys who fought wars against oen another and up as leaders for the same side. We're much better off with fewer leaders. Given the number of provinces they can't field too many armies anyway. And if I'm not mistaken you rarely had a Daimyo field more than one army anyway. So one leader per 'clan' is what it should be.

[doktarr]

Originally Posted by Isaac Brock

I know that this is a huge problem. But I think it's pretty awful if two guys who fought wars against oen another and up as leaders for the same side. We're much better off with fewer leaders. Given the number of provinces they can't field too many armies anyway. And if I'm not mistaken you rarely had a Daimyo field more than one army anyway. So one leader per 'clan' is what it should be.

Alternatively, just have the second leader active only during the period when he was allied to the daimyo.

[Jinnai]

Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg

Tell me who are the must include and which territory. Also, some rough idea about event/succesion line and I can provide you with a list.

Oda/Tokogowa are the only ones that must be included.

I'd like Mori, Takeda, Ukita, , Uesugi. Kansai, and Ouchi

I'd really like Hojo clan is as they were one of the last major clans left in the end despite their terrtible

Amago and Asakura clan doesn't haveto be sure.

Those outside Kantou and Kansai should be as you mentioned several posts above i think.

Depending on how you want to impliment this i guess, but essentially whatever clan you want to have the real power in the end might be best to use because as mentioned flags can be changed easily but even with all the tags floating around i doubt many people would be thrilled with me taking a bunch of tags for every switch in control because control switched to the dominant clan leaders in the province change. That would be best, but somehow i don't see that happening.