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Should the Far East start with higher military tech?

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Norrefeldt

Norrefeldt

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Aug 1, 2001
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This discussion took place elsewhere, now it will continue here. Please. :)

Norrefeldt said:
Mongolia starts with land tech 5 1419. Can you confirm that it's a bug? Should it be 0 or 1?
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Sun_Zi_36 said:
not a bug. people have been saying in various places to boost tech levels in the Far East. i intended it to be the first of such increases. China should start at 4. Mongol tech level is justified because they are only forced away from China half a decade ago and military technology hasnt changed much since.
i think they should be in china techgroup if not it should be fixed.

BTW i m feeling a bit guilty that it's now beta 1.25 and i still havent put in anything to formalise the inclusion of mongolia and havent introduced the new Zheng He events. i m still too busy with real life work and assignments etc, but i will try my best to make the time for it.
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Norrefeldt said:
They are in china group already.
So the mongols would easily overrun an equally sized English HYW army with one third longbow archers 1419? I'm not so sure. :(
Could you help me with some links to these discussions. I'm interested to learn more about what military technics they knew about that only came to Europe half a century later. This should be discussed forum wide, not just in Far East, to get it implemented.
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Isaac Brock said:
But how much does it matter? They will never face those longbow armed English troops. The neighbour bonus could be a small problem, but China advances so quickly that it's hardly going to matter. As long as they advance slowly (how can they not) by the time they face anyone but China they will be lagging in tech.

Oh yeah this needs to be in a different thread. ;)

edit: I suppose that if they can overrun China very early on that would be a problem too. Seems pretty unlikely to me. And on the argument of realism it might be a bit lacking - hard for me to understand why they should have weaker cavalry and stronger infantry than the Chinese. But given the options available it makes sense for gameplay.
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doktarr said:
I doubt it as well, but:

1) Tech 1 vs. tech 5 is basically a wash; it's tech 9 that matters. The Mongols are just getting a bit of a head start.

2) I thought the Mongol change was not just the start of diversified tech levels in the east, but diversified tech levels everywhere. I thought China was going to start as the tech leader, being the only nation with cannon. You could make an argument that England should get cannon as well, since Henry was the first European to use massed cannons to end seiges.

The rest of Europe and Asia would range from land 6 to land 3, with 2 and lower reserved for primitive societies. We would include a modified land.csv that gives massively reduced shock values for the lowest (0, 1, and 2) tech levels.Here's a link to MKJ's tech level tweaking thread. That's where I'm getting this stuff from.

P.S. Sun Zi, a couple weeks ago I edited my double post on the previous page into a response in our long-standing Mongol/China/Russia debate. It's right above MKJ's map. Not sure you noticed. Respond (or don't) at your leisure.
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Isaac Brock said:
I don't want to start this argument, but I hate this idea.

And my suport for tech 5 mongols should in NO WAY be taken as endorsing the ideas from that thread. I think it's overkill, I think it's adressing a problem that we do not have. Tweaking level 1 and 2 makes some sense, messing with the Chinese naval techs helps with a problem we definitely do have, but starting people out at tech 6 is hopeless. 7 to 11 are very cheap techs, and we'll get arquebusiers very very early.

I had thought that the mongol tech was there to represent the fact they they need hogh morale relative to the Chinese, no more and no less. If it is in fact the thin wedge for undermining the entire land tech system I say make them tech 1. They ought to have higher shock value cavalry anyway.
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If we want to give the mongols higher moral than China, why not let them have max offensive (they shouldn't be building many fortifications anyhow I guess) and let them have higher quality as well?
2March beta:
Code: 
tech level	Land morale	Naval morale		
0		1.5		1.5
1		1.6		1.5
2		1.75		1.5
3		1.75		1.5
4		2		1.5
5		2		1.5
6		2		1.5
7		2.25		1.5
8		2.25		1.5

Code: 
Slider position	 0	 1	 2	 3	 4	 5	 6	 7	 8	 9	10
Offensive	-0.20	-0.16	-0.12	-0.08	-0.04	0	+0.04	+0.08	+0.12	+0.16	+0.20
Land		 0	 0	 0	 0	 0	0	+0.10	+0.20	+0.30	+0.40	+0.50
Quality		-0.25	-0.20	-0.15	-0.10	-0.05	0	+0.05	+0.10	+0.15	+0.2	+0.25
Serfdom		+0.25	+0.20	+0.15	+0.10	+0.05	0	-0.05	-0.10	-0.15	-0.2	-0.25

Setting the DP sliders for Mongolia towards high moral can give them a substantial lead over China. This is even more so with the latest betas, where the importance of moral is much greater. From 1.2.5:

country = {
tag = CHI
policy = {
aristocracy = 7
centralization = 9
innovative = 1
mercantilism = 7
offensive = 4
land = 7
quality = 8
serfdom = 8
}
country = {
tag = ASS
policy = {
date = { year = 0 month = january day = 0 }
aristocracy = 6
centralization = 2
innovative = 1
mercantilism = 10
offensive = 10
land = 10
quality = 10
serfdom = 0
}

They should have no problem at all beating China even with similar moral.
 
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following on in the far east thread
Sun_Zi_36 said:
Norrefeldt said:
They are in china group already.
So the mongols would easily overrun an equally sized English HYW army with one third longbow archers 1419? I'm not so sure. :(
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could be, i have no idea. long bow vs horsearcher/horsemen with explosive seige weapons?
Norrefeldt said:
Could you help me with some links to these discussions. I'm interested to learn more about what military technics they knew about that only came to Europe half a century later. This should be discussed forum wide, not just in Far East, to get it implemented.
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hmm... well, cant really point to anywhere off the top of my head as this is a relatively minor thing i dont remember anybody questioned that has been suggested long long time ago. feel free to open a particular thread to discuss it if you want. last time it's mentioned i think is in the thread doktarr provided. nobody questioned the fact that far east should have higher tech in that thread either, i think it was only MKJ's proposal itself that is having problems.

but MKJ's proposal of reserving the bottom tech for primitive nations is not relevant to the idea of a Far East with generally higher tech level. so Isaac's concern is taken care of. And Isaac's thought is partly right in a sense the immediate reason why i raised Mongols tech to 5 was bcoz of the need to quell China. But china would also have its tech raised to (i think) 4. But china will soon takeover and advance much faster than Mongols, so it is one concern that would be tested later. Later the religious effects will be altered to give confucian a morale penalty (again discussed before), and this should tilt the balance back somewhat.
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Sun_Zi_36 said:
thats very good then. we can safely increase China's land tech to 4 as has been suggested in various places for a long time.
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That is not really an arguement. ;)

Indeed the issue here is not Mongolia vs. China, since that can be solved. It's rather Europe vs China. I'd like to compare with Henry V´s HYW army, since it was probably the most high tech in Europe at the time: it's archers were superior to the French heavy cavalry, the use of longbows in field armies were the super weapon of the time. The English had some primitive field artillery and had started to use siege artillery as well. It has the highest land tech in Europe one could say. What was it in Chinese warfare like? Was it really superior, and if so, in what way?

Of course China could field much larger armies, but we should try to just discuss technology. Moral is sometimes hard to distinguish from technology though.
 
I absolutely do not think China should start at 4. They advance too fast as is, and will be providing the China group neighbour bonus for most of the game.

As to China vs Europe, I think it's not important. I'd guess the Chinese were a little better, but so what. By the time there can possibly be any interaction Europeans will be at a higher tech.

As a general rule of thumb light infantry has always been able to beat light cavalry when skill levels are the same. I'd guess the English Longbows could take out Mongolian cavalry on that basis. In the same way light cavalry had always been able to beat heavy cavalry, and the European knights could never stand up to the Mongols. If technology means doctrine and 'training' the Mongols were certainly much more advanced than any Europeans.
 
The problem is that the tech level 1 in Europe holds a wide range of different military systems. Everything from Henry V's army and Spanish infantry to armies in eastern Europe. Without further evidence the same tech could be used for China.
A medieval style cav army of eastern Europe would still get defeated 90% of he cases with the DP setting of Mongolia. They would still be superior since their DP settings have twice more impact than the difference between 1 and 5 in land tech. We should only give higher tech if that was really the case!
 
There is no point in comparing Europe and China's land tech in 1419 - there's no way they're going to fight that early. Comparing them 100 years later is worth doing, however, if we're concerned that China is going to be too high.
 
I don't really see a problem with the Mongols at 5. Like it's been said they will never fight an English Army. so that's not an issue. IMHO, it should be more like a 3 or even 4. I don't think China should start at 4 though. If China starts at 1, and Mongols at 4 (exotic) they will even out by the 1490's which makes the Mongols a major pain in China's side for that period, as they should be.
 
I think Mongolia is already maxed on morale-gaining things. They are full offensive, full land (makes sense), full quality, and zero serfdom (the only ones to be so at start, I think)
I've never seen Mongolia able to make use of that extra tech, anyway. With their very expensive troops, limited manpower and money, and rather tenuous route into China, that tech level means almost nothing in most cases.
 
chegitz guevara said:
You say that Henry's army was the most high tech in Europ. Not sure that's true. The Turks were the first to start using cannons and guns.
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OK, the English were just an example. I don't know much about Ottoman armies 1419 so I couldn't tell really. Did they use cannons 1419? Anyway, the question remains till we can find some *facts*. Were Mongols/China more technologically advanced 1419 than Ottomans/England?

Khephren said:
I don't really see a problem with the Mongols at 5. Like it's been said they will never fight an English Army. so that's not an issue. IMHO, it should be more like a 3 or even 4. I don't think China should start at 4 though. If China starts at 1, and Mongols at 4 (exotic) they will even out by the 1490's which makes the Mongols a major pain in China's side for that period, as they should be.
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So, if something really doesn't matter it's OK if it's not correct? I don't agree. Mongols are Chinese tech group, should they really be taken down? Compare he Mongol DP settings with Chinese DP setting (from my post above) and they will still be a major pain for China for a long time. 0.5 in moral advantage early on is *a lot*.
If their tech is not historical and only leads to raising neighbour bonus for their group we are way off IMO.
 
Norrefeldt said:
So, if something really doesn't matter it's OK if it's not correct? I don't agree. Mongols are Chinese tech group, should they really be taken down? Compare he Mongol DP settings with Chinese DP setting (from my post above) and they will still be a major pain for China for a long time. 0.5 in moral advantage early on is *a lot*.
If their tech is not historical and only leads to raising neighbour bonus for their group we are way off IMO.
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Neighbour bonus in the china group is pretty miserable as is. I don't see that it's really a problem. If the Mongols get to 11 by 1600 we have problems, but I can't see how that can happen.

The relative land technology of the Ottomans or English and the Mongols or Chinese makes no difference in the game. What is "correct" is entirely subjective. In terms of doctrine the mongols were very advanced. The whole point of the Mongol tech was to ensure that they would be a real pain for China for a very long time. The tech can be justified from a historical point of view. I don't see such a big problem.
 
Norrefeldt said:
Indeed the issue here is not Mongolia vs. China, since that can be solved. It's rather Europe vs China. I'd like to compare with Henry V´s HYW army, since it was probably the most high tech in Europe at the time: it's archers were superior to the French heavy cavalry, the use of longbows in field armies were the super weapon of the time. The English had some primitive field artillery and had started to use siege artillery as well. It has the highest land tech in Europe one could say.
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The English longbow advantage only existed when English armies were on the defensive. If you look at the major English victories during the HYW, you will find that the English forces were defending. This was a fact well know to the French, which was why some previous (and successful) French kings refused to attack the English. Perhaps the most successful French tactic, was to march their armies to the English lines and wait them out. As the French had deeper coffers than the English, they always won. As the English could not afford to maintain a large army for a long period of time. This was a tactic not unlike what was used during the Cold War. The French knew they were richer, and used it to their advantage whenever they could. This also explains why the English extensively looted, pillaged, and employed bandits in France. Such English tactics helped pay for the war effort and encouraged the French to attack the English.
 
Getting back to the main topic. I would like to see Sun Zi's tech ideas in regards to Mongolia (land 5) and China (naval 4) implemented in the mod for at least a test period. We can use feedback from the threads to help us make our final decision.
 
Lord Tarleton said:
Getting back to the main topic. I would like to see Sun Zi's tech ideas in regards to Mongolia (land 5) and China (naval 4) implemented in the mod for at least a test period. We can use feedback from the threads to help us make our final decision.
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Sun Zi was suggesting LAND 4, not naval 4. The prevailing mood seems to be to put China at the base landtech level - 1, or 2 or 3 if we reserve the lowest levels for primitive societies.

As far as naval tech goes, I thought the plan was to give them naval 6 or 7, and compensate for this under-rating by giving Zheng He amazing movement and shock values.
 
Isaac Brock said:
And my suport for tech 5 mongols should in NO WAY be taken as endorsing the ideas from that thread. I think it's overkill, I think it's adressing a problem that we do not have.
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I suppose this may be true, but some diversity in initial tech levels would be realistic.
Isaac Brock said:
Tweaking level 1 and 2 makes some sense, messing with the Chinese naval techs helps with a problem we definitely do have,
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There does seem to be consensus on these issues, which is nice.
Isaac Brock said:
but starting people out at tech 6 is hopeless. 7 to 11 are very cheap techs, and we'll get arquebusiers very very early.
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Is there any way to modify the tech costs from level to level, or are they hard-coded? Can it be done without making agceep installation more difficult?
 
Norrefeldt said:
That is not really an arguement. ;)
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i didn't say that was an argument in favour. coz i dont see anything to argue against. ;)

as isaac said, the tech level is historically justifiable:
Isaac Brock said:
The relative land technology of the Ottomans or English and the Mongols or Chinese makes no difference in the game. What is "correct" is entirely subjective. In terms of doctrine the mongols were very advanced. The whole point of the Mongol tech was to ensure that they would be a real pain for China for a very long time. The tech can be justified from a historical point of view. I don't see such a big problem.
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and there is no point to compare armies in different parts of the world that is adapted to different fighting conditions. how would english armies fight against mongol armies in the mongolian desert? And would the mongols necessarily win when fighting in conditions of continental europe? i m trying to find the place where i give a description about the types of gunpowder weapons used by China prior to Yuan dynasty during late Sung dyansty, but I can't find where i said it. do you remember where I said it Jinnai? pity the search function only gives you very recent results.

anyway, IMO, at least theres no reason why you cannot say the technology in the Far East during that period (a few centuries earlier) is superior to europe.

i fact i think the middle east should also start off slightly higher than europe.

actually the idea was not just to have Mongol 5 and China 4 for land tech, but a general increase in the far east, such as Korea 4, Japan 2, Dai Viet 2, Chagatai 2, the rest of far east except east indies around 1. That is of course more because "it was really the case" than for any other reason.
 
I might be a little concerned regarding interaction between China and the West, if only in the Portuguese case.

It has happened to me to reach the Far East with Portugal with relatively low land technology, and if China and other nations were given a very large edge in the beginning, it might affect the way Portugal interacts with them. Not that Portugal should be trying to fight China (at least the way I play it), but I don't think encounters between Far East nations and the first European colonial powers should be dismissed off-hand. I don't think it would be much of a problem, or very unrealistic, but that depends on their advancement rates, and I haven't looked into those. Just something to bear in mind. :)
 
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