Prestige From Culture Techs, a Sad Minor's Tale . . .

Valinn · 16-03-2004, 03:35

What makes a Paradox game fun? To me, it’s taking an also-ran country and out-doing its historical performance. What fun it is to dominate the world as the UK or France? The game ought to make that inevitable, as it tries to be true to history. But to make a small South American nation a world power—that’s a challenge. So long as a rules are not loaded against the little guy.

I’ve now played five grand campaigns under 1.03—Sardinia / Italy, Venezuela, Haiti, Oranje, and Siam. I always tend to pursue the same initial strategy (except in my Siam game). I run up the culture tree, and then wait to get my prestige as I do other things. Except, for some reason, this only worked for Sardinia and, to a lesser, extent, Haiti.

With my Italy game, I tended to get tech inventions when they first came available, netting about 150 prestige per invention. It took a little longer with Haiti, usually netting 50 prestige per invention. With Venezuela and Oranje, however, no matter when I researched a tech, I got 1 prestige for each corresponding inventions. Wait—occasionally I got as much as 13. Needless to say, it was a little frustrating to research a tech and then wait twenty years to get the inventions for a grand total of one prestige point. Again and again.

I think one of two things is happening. First, it may be that when several countries get the invention on the same day, game grants prestige in a certain order, with the big countries coming first. So, no matter when a nation researched a tech, if England and Oranje get it on “invention day,” England always gets it “first” and Oranje close to last. Or, second, it might be that minors have a built in delays on getting inventions to make sure they get them later. The delay might be based on nation tag, or it might be just based on current prestige—in which case, it would be unfair because it stacks the deck in favor of those starting on top for no just reason.

Of course, it is possible—but I don’t think likely—that I just got unlucky with the random number generator again and again. It was simply too consistent. Italy got 150 every time. Oranje and Venezuela 1 almost every time. And Oranje ran up the tree faster than Italy, as I actually researched some early army techs with the culture techs with Sardinia/Italy to help my wars of conquest on the Italian minors.

Has anyone else noticed this? And if I’m right about this, can someone lobby to get it changed in a future patch. Minors ought to have the same chance to get prestige from culture as majors. If you can’t conquer the world, you ought to be able to churn out some good books.

november · 16-03-2004, 04:13

Ummm. I don’t know. I’ve played 6 GCs using South American nations and I’ve always finished 1-3, usually 1 in prestige. Sometimes by as much as 40% more than number 2.

There is randomness as to which techs are available at any one time. For example, Free Trade may be available but if you choose, say, Clean Coal instead there’s no gurantee that Free Trade will be available next time.

It may be that you get a run of education cost reducing techs early rather than prestige increasing ones.

Also, many nations start with clerks which give them an early boost compared to the clerk less nations you’ve been playing.

Kriegsspieler · 16-03-2004, 14:59

It may also be possible that where you think you are the first to discover a tech, in fact you aren't. So with Romanticism, for example, Prussia appropriately starts out the game having already discovered it, and so is far more likely to get the prestige-enhancing resultant discoveries of Romantic music, art, etc, thatn are you. Anyway, I think the message is that I don't think you can yet generalize from your unlucky experiences witrh those minors.

weird god · 16-03-2004, 15:41

in my TS->italy game i sacked the 150 four or even five times along with some 100s. either i was just VERY lucky, or your thesis has got an argument

iBaLkiD · 16-03-2004, 17:29

Doesnt Haiti's lack of Clerks and low literacy levels mean they reaearch very slowly? There would be no way to beat other nations to those cluture tech no?

november · 16-03-2004, 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by iBaLkiD

Doesnt Haiti's lack of Clerks and low literacy levels mean they reaearch very slowly? There would be no way to beat other nations to those cluture tech no?

Not necessarily. Clerk influence is based on percentage of the population. For a small nation even converting 1 or 2 largish POPs to clerks can make clerks a significant sector in the population.

Valinn · 17-03-2004, 02:43

Thanks for the replies. A few points in response:

A) One of the reasons I feel like there is some form of delay built into the system is the unreasonable delay some countries seem to have getting inventions after discovering the right tech. In my minor country games, often twenty or more years would pass before I inventions corresponding to a tech, even though I know it was available before then. And then I got one prestige point for them each. If it was just that I didn’t research the tech before other nations, I should have gotten the inventions quickly for that one big prestige point.

B) Haiti does have the disadvantages you noted. But, for some reason, I had far less of a problem with Haiti. In my Haiti game, I actually got about 50 prestige a pop. Go figure. As a side note, due to an immigration quirk, Haiti is quickly a monster country. If you institute maximum reforms quickly enough, you will soon have over 50 pops in each province on your island toiling away in tobacco fields making obscene bags of money. I think it has to do with the 35 life ratings on the islands. Use that money to buy Cuba and Puerto Rico from Spain. Soon, they also have about 30 pops per province. Industrialize away, buy the rest of the Caribbean from England and France, become a top three power in your sleep. I had over 45 million people living in the Carribean by 1900. The only thing holding you back from number one is it is probably too late to colonize to a prestige victory, and you still can’t rival U.S. industry.

C) The better test case was Oranje. For some reason—low population maybe—I got a techs with Oranje every year with maxed education, with a surplus of RP points to boot. This started very quickly into the game, as Oranje has pretty good literacy at the start. If I was getting one culture tech per year, I don’t see how the AI could have possibly beat me in culture unless it was also running up the culture tree with no effort in others areas, something I don’t think any country’s AI does. (I could be wrong). Even if some nations were doing this and barely beating me one some techs, how did I still never get more than 13 prestige from any culture invention, ever? That just can’t be right.

Now, I have heard people talk about pursuing the culture techs strategy successfully with South American countries. So, maybe the advantage isn’t major / minor, but rather prestige itself. A country with prestige gets inventions faster. If you can build a colony or win a war quickly enough, the culture tree works fine. You have prestige, so you get the inventions netting you more prestige. If you play more conservatively and try to research your way ahead alone, however, you will never get the prestige from culture inventions because you don’t have prestige already. This is why Italy would do well—it should get a lot of prestige early from just unifying Italy.

Any other thoughts?

november · 17-03-2004, 03:29

If what you say is true, it would change my play style significantly when it comes to small countries. But I don’t think it’s true. In my GCs (6) with third-tier countries like Brazil and Peru, my prestige was always high but varied from game to game, about 2000 points between best and worst.

Also I start getting huge prestige gains while still ranked low.

But something does seem afoot.

Ubersandwich · 17-03-2004, 05:02

'Also I start getting huge prestige gains while still ranked low.'

Not that I'm an expert, I really have only played one CG as Peru.. But I got several 150 prestiege inventions. They came one after the other, in a rapid fire pace. Of course I recieved several more +1 p, too.

I'll think i'll go experement with Argentina and fire up a new game.

november · 17-03-2004, 05:35

Fawr points out in another thread that tech cost varies (either 9 or 10 RPs) due to your cultural identity. Perhaps this helps to explain it. He maintains that 9 point techs are researched quicker than the 10’ers.

Action · 17-03-2004, 05:43

I remember reading in another thread that it worked like this

Theres a start date for most of these inventions, like 1850 for romanticist stuff (example, not sure this is the right date) and a lot of time you research the tech before the invention can fire.

Once the start date for the invention occurs, it's random when you will get the invention (unless you have negative prestige, you're way less likely to get it then). So if a couple countries randomly get the invention before you, you wouldn't get many points at all from the invention.

I dunno, maybe this is wrong, but my observations mesh with it.

16-03-2004, 03:35	#1
Valinn Captain Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 362	Prestige From Culture Techs, a Sad Minor's Tale . . . What makes a Paradox game fun? To me, it’s taking an also-ran country and out-doing its historical performance. What fun it is to dominate the world as the UK or France? The game ought to make that inevitable, as it tries to be true to history. But to make a small South American nation a world power—that’s a challenge. So long as a rules are not loaded against the little guy. I’ve now played five grand campaigns under 1.03—Sardinia / Italy, Venezuela, Haiti, Oranje, and Siam. I always tend to pursue the same initial strategy (except in my Siam game). I run up the culture tree, and then wait to get my prestige as I do other things. Except, for some reason, this only worked for Sardinia and, to a lesser, extent, Haiti. With my Italy game, I tended to get tech inventions when they first came available, netting about 150 prestige per invention. It took a little longer with Haiti, usually netting 50 prestige per invention. With Venezuela and Oranje, however, no matter when I researched a tech, I got 1 prestige for each corresponding inventions. Wait—occasionally I got as much as 13. Needless to say, it was a little frustrating to research a tech and then wait twenty years to get the inventions for a grand total of one prestige point. Again and again. I think one of two things is happening. First, it may be that when several countries get the invention on the same day, game grants prestige in a certain order, with the big countries coming first. So, no matter when a nation researched a tech, if England and Oranje get it on “invention day,” England always gets it “first” and Oranje close to last. Or, second, it might be that minors have a built in delays on getting inventions to make sure they get them later. The delay might be based on nation tag, or it might be just based on current prestige—in which case, it would be unfair because it stacks the deck in favor of those starting on top for no just reason. Of course, it is possible—but I don’t think likely—that I just got unlucky with the random number generator again and again. It was simply too consistent. Italy got 150 every time. Oranje and Venezuela 1 almost every time. And Oranje ran up the tree faster than Italy, as I actually researched some early army techs with the culture techs with Sardinia/Italy to help my wars of conquest on the Italian minors. Has anyone else noticed this? And if I’m right about this, can someone lobby to get it changed in a future patch. Minors ought to have the same chance to get prestige from culture as majors. If you can’t conquer the world, you ought to be able to churn out some good books.

16-03-2004, 04:13	#2
november Lt. General Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Top of the world Posts: 1,296	Ummm. I don’t know. I’ve played 6 GCs using South American nations and I’ve always finished 1-3, usually 1 in prestige. Sometimes by as much as 40% more than number 2. There is randomness as to which techs are available at any one time. For example, Free Trade may be available but if you choose, say, Clean Coal instead there’s no gurantee that Free Trade will be available next time. It may be that you get a run of education cost reducing techs early rather than prestige increasing ones. Also, many nations start with clerks which give them an early boost compared to the clerk less nations you’ve been playing. Last edited by november; 16-03-2004 at 15:51.

16-03-2004, 14:59	#3
Kriegsspieler Field Marshal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Madison WI, USA Posts: 5,773	It may also be possible that where you think you are the first to discover a tech, in fact you aren't. So with Romanticism, for example, Prussia appropriately starts out the game having already discovered it, and so is far more likely to get the prestige-enhancing resultant discoveries of Romantic music, art, etc, thatn are you. Anyway, I think the message is that I don't think you can yet generalize from your unlucky experiences witrh those minors. __________________ HOI2, HOI3: Dirigierender Chefredakteur Victoria - Revolutions: Fabrikknecht EU3: Reichskanzler

16-03-2004, 15:41	#4
weird god His noodly appendage Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Ministry of Peace Posts: 1,365	in my TS->italy game i sacked the 150 four or even five times along with some 100s. either i was just VERY lucky, or your thesis has got an argument __________________ O Lord, grant that I may always be right, for Thou knowest I will never change my mind

16-03-2004, 17:29	#5
iBaLkiD The Neighborhood WarMonger Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: No longer Right behind you! Posts: 1,957	Doesnt Haiti's lack of Clerks and low literacy levels mean they reaearch very slowly? There would be no way to beat other nations to those cluture tech no? __________________ HAVE AT

17-03-2004, 02:43	#7
Valinn Captain Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 362	Thanks for the replies. A few points in response: A) One of the reasons I feel like there is some form of delay built into the system is the unreasonable delay some countries seem to have getting inventions after discovering the right tech. In my minor country games, often twenty or more years would pass before I inventions corresponding to a tech, even though I know it was available before then. And then I got one prestige point for them each. If it was just that I didn’t research the tech before other nations, I should have gotten the inventions quickly for that one big prestige point. B) Haiti does have the disadvantages you noted. But, for some reason, I had far less of a problem with Haiti. In my Haiti game, I actually got about 50 prestige a pop. Go figure. As a side note, due to an immigration quirk, Haiti is quickly a monster country. If you institute maximum reforms quickly enough, you will soon have over 50 pops in each province on your island toiling away in tobacco fields making obscene bags of money. I think it has to do with the 35 life ratings on the islands. Use that money to buy Cuba and Puerto Rico from Spain. Soon, they also have about 30 pops per province. Industrialize away, buy the rest of the Caribbean from England and France, become a top three power in your sleep. I had over 45 million people living in the Carribean by 1900. The only thing holding you back from number one is it is probably too late to colonize to a prestige victory, and you still can’t rival U.S. industry. C) The better test case was Oranje. For some reason—low population maybe—I got a techs with Oranje every year with maxed education, with a surplus of RP points to boot. This started very quickly into the game, as Oranje has pretty good literacy at the start. If I was getting one culture tech per year, I don’t see how the AI could have possibly beat me in culture unless it was also running up the culture tree with no effort in others areas, something I don’t think any country’s AI does. (I could be wrong). Even if some nations were doing this and barely beating me one some techs, how did I still never get more than 13 prestige from any culture invention, ever? That just can’t be right. Now, I have heard people talk about pursuing the culture techs strategy successfully with South American countries. So, maybe the advantage isn’t major / minor, but rather prestige itself. A country with prestige gets inventions faster. If you can build a colony or win a war quickly enough, the culture tree works fine. You have prestige, so you get the inventions netting you more prestige. If you play more conservatively and try to research your way ahead alone, however, you will never get the prestige from culture inventions because you don’t have prestige already. This is why Italy would do well—it should get a lot of prestige early from just unifying Italy. Any other thoughts?

17-03-2004, 03:29	#8
november Lt. General Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Top of the world Posts: 1,296	If what you say is true, it would change my play style significantly when it comes to small countries. But I don’t think it’s true. In my GCs (6) with third-tier countries like Brazil and Peru, my prestige was always high but varied from game to game, about 2000 points between best and worst. Also I start getting huge prestige gains while still ranked low. But something does seem afoot.

17-03-2004, 05:02	#9
Ubersandwich Sergeant Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The Evergreen State, USA Posts: 66	'Also I start getting huge prestige gains while still ranked low.' Not that I'm an expert, I really have only played one CG as Peru.. But I got several 150 prestiege inventions. They came one after the other, in a rapid fire pace. Of course I recieved several more +1 p, too. I'll think i'll go experement with Argentina and fire up a new game. __________________ Totus arx occupamur nos.

17-03-2004, 05:35	#10
november Lt. General Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Top of the world Posts: 1,296	Fawr points out in another thread that tech cost varies (either 9 or 10 RPs) due to your cultural identity. Perhaps this helps to explain it. He maintains that 9 point techs are researched quicker than the 10’ers.

17-03-2004, 05:43	#11
Action Second Lieutenant Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 118	I remember reading in another thread that it worked like this Theres a start date for most of these inventions, like 1850 for romanticist stuff (example, not sure this is the right date) and a lot of time you research the tech before the invention can fire. Once the start date for the invention occurs, it's random when you will get the invention (unless you have negative prestige, you're way less likely to get it then). So if a couple countries randomly get the invention before you, you wouldn't get many points at all from the invention. I dunno, maybe this is wrong, but my observations mesh with it.