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unmerged(12544)

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Dec 9, 2002
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Production output (1.02)

Factory:

factory output = production efficiency * (culture * type * size) * {capitalists} * building_efficiencies * max. working hours * work_hour_eff / 5

The formula gives the output for one pop in that specific factory.

I have seen it work for:
steel, winery, lumber, others not testet, should work for all

Infrastructure:
production efficiency = see province 40-100% [0.40 - 1.0]

and is depending on railroads

Railroads have 7 levels:
level 0 - 40% provincial infrastructure
level 1 - 50% provincial infrastructure
level 2 - 60% provincial infrastructure
level 3 - 70% provincial infrastructure
level 4 - 80% provincial infrastructure
level 5 - 90% provincial infrastructure
level 6 - 100% provincial infrastructure

test:
PE = 86% ->1.61 steel
PE = 40.2% ->0.75 steel

Pop():
culture = 1.0 main culture; 0.5 others [0.5 or 1.0]
type = craftsmen [1.0] or clerks [1.0 + literacy/2]
size = 4 classes [0.33; 0.5; 0.75; 1.0]

Capitalists{}:
Capitalists = {1 + (0.1 * capitalist_bonus) * eff capitalists}. The culture of the capitalist pop does not effect the bonus. Range [>=1.0].

1 capitalist pop size test:
no capitalist ->1.61 steel
1.000 ->1.61 steel
25.000 ->1.65 steel
50.000 ->1.70 steel
75.000 ->1.74 steel
82.000 ->1.75 steel
100.000 ->1.78 steel

2 capitalists:
100.000, 50.000 ->1.86 steel

3 capitalists:
100.000, 100.000, 50.000 ->2.02 steel

eff capitalists = (all capitalist pops added up)/ 100.000

e.g.(capitalist_bonus = 1.02):
4 capitalist pops:
1.000 - 0.010
50.000 - 0.500
100.000 - 1.000
20.000 - 0.200
Two ways to calculate:
1) eff capitalists = (1.000 + 50.000 + 100.000 + 20.000)/ 100.000 = 1.71
2) eff capitalists = 0.01 + 0.5 + 1 + 0.2 = 1.71 (equals 171.000)
-> capitalists = {1 + (0.1 * 1.02) * 1.71} = 1.17442

I have seen it work for 13 for Prussia and even more for China and suppose, that there is no limit. When you convert a pop to a capitalist, the effect on the bonus will start at the first day of the next month.

capitalist_bonus = see save game file, 1.02 for Prussia in 1836

building_efficiencies = see save game file, 2.5 (steel_factory)

pop size test:
(Schlesien, North German, PE = 40.2%, no capitalist)
100.000 ->0.20 steel
50.000 ->0.20 steel
49.900 ->0.15 steel
40.000 ->0.15 steel
20.000 ->0.15 steel
19.900 ->0.10 steel
10.000 ->0.10 steel
1.000 ->0.10 steel
500 ->0.10 steel
400 ->0.07 steel
100 ->0.07 steel

So the size value is:
[0.33] for pops <500 (1-499)
[0.50] for pops from 500 to <20.000 (500-19.999)
[0.75] for pops from 20000 to <50.000 (20.000-49.999)
[1.00] for pops >=50.000 (50.000-100.000)

Max. working hours:
[1.00] - no limit
[0.90] - 14 working hours
[0.85] - 12 working hours
[0.80] - 10 working hours
[0.75] - 8 working hours

work_hour_eff = see save game file, 1.0 for Prussia in 1836

Example:
one 100.000 craftsmen pop, North German, PE = 40.2%, no capitalist in state

factory output = 0.402 * (1.0 * 1.0 * 1.0) * {1.0} * 2.5 * 1.0 * 1.0 / 5 = 0.201 steel per day


Several pops working:
e.g. Prussia 1836 Schlesien, steel factory, PE = 40.2%, no capitalist in state, literacy 80%

10.000 craftsmen, North German
1.000 clerks, North German
9.000 craftsmen, North German
1.000 clerks, South German
14.000 craftsmen, North German

actual output = 0.51

calculated
pop1 = 0.402 * (1.0 * 1.0 * 0.5) * {1.0} * 2.5 * 1.0 * 1.0 / 5 = 0.1005
pop2 = 0.402 * (1.0 * 1.4 * 0.5) * {1.0} * 2.5 * 1.0 * 1.0 / 5 = 0.1407
pop3 = 0.402 * (1.0 * 1.0 * 0.5) * {1.0} * 2.5 * 1.0 * 1.0 / 5 = 0.1005
pop4 = 0.402 * (0.5 * 1.4 * 0.5) * {1.0} * 2.5 * 1.0 * 1.0 / 5 = 0.07035
pop5 = 0.402 * (1.0 * 1.0 * 0.5) * {1.0} * 2.5 * 1.0 * 1.0 / 5 = 0.1005

sum = 0.51255


RGO:

test in Erfurt, iron mine, PE = 40.9%, resource value(RV) = 3.75 iron (75%)

1.000 South German ->0.11 iron

RGO output = production efficiency * (culture * size) * {aristocrat} * resource value * resource * building_efficiencies * max. working hours * work_hour_eff / 5

I have seen it work for:
iron, fruit, grain, cattle, fish, coal, timber, others not testet

resource value:
[10.0] 200% for a "10.0" province
[7.50] 150% for "7.5"
[5.00] 100% for "5.0"
[4.00] 80% for "4.0"
[3.75] 75% for "3.8"
[2.50] 50% for "2.5"
[1.25] 25% for "1.3"
I have seen those levels, but there do exist more

resource:
[1.5] for iron, coal, fruit, grain, fish, cattle, timber

I try to manipulate the world market level to 0, through buying all resources for some days. When there is over supply, the output drops significantly.

So the formula gives you the maximum RGO output, when the level on the WM is low for this resource. When it is higher, the "resource" factor will go down from [1.5] to [0.6] or even [0.4]. North German slaves produce the same output, like North German farmers, so there is no type necessary in the formula.

Aristocrat{}:
Aristocrat = {1 + (0.1 * aristocrat_bonus) * eff aristocrats}. I suppose, that it works like for capitalists. The aristocrat has to be in the same province as the RGO to give a bonus, its culture does not matter.

eff aristocrats = (all aristocrat pops added up)/ 100.000

Aristocrat = {1.0} (no bonus) for:
iron, coal, timber, cotton

applies for:
grain, fruit, cattle, fish

aristocrat_bonus = see save game file, 1.0 for Prussia in 1836

building_efficiencies = see save game file, 1.0 (iron_mine)


Example:
one 50.000 labourers pop, North German, PE = 80%, RV = 2.5

RGO output = 0.8 * (1.0 * 1.0) * {1.0} * 2.5 * 1.5 * 1.0 * 1.0 * 1.0 / 5 = 0.6 iron per day (0 iron available at the world market)


Example 2:
Danzig, 27.000 farmers, North German, PE = 58%, RV = 1.25, one 100.000 aristocrat pop present

RGO output = 0.58 * (1.0 * 0.75) * {1.1} * 1.25 * 1.5 * 1.0 * 1.0 * 1.0 / 5 = 0.1794 fish per day


Summary:
1)A non-main culture pop only gives 50% output of a main culture pop.
2)Religion and ideology do not effect production output.
3)Capitalists present in a state can give a bonus to the output of all factories in that state.
4)Clerks give a bonus, compared to craftsmen. The best ratio in factories is 2 clerks and 3 craftsmen per factory. The biggest pops to work in factories should get clerks.
5)The level of the factory does not effect production output per pop. The level of an RGO does not effect output per pop.
6)Railroads level 6 give +150% output (factor 2.5) to factories and RGOs, compared to level 0.
7)Aristocrats can give a bonus to RGO output for some resources, when the aristocrat(s) is in the same province.
8)An RGO with a "5.0" resource value produces +300% output, compared to a "1.3" province.
 
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Deserve a stick and a link
 
I have found something else, that looks interesting. 2 games:
China in 1865, 806 million people, 64% national population, export 26.000, tech 3,3,5,3,4.
To produce 1 steel, they need 0.73 iron and coal; 1 steamer ->3.68 coal, 1.84 iron.
Germany in 1873, 132 million people, 61% national population, export 28.000, tech 16,15,16,15,19.
To produce 1 steel, they need 0.30 iron and coal; 1 steamer ->2 coal, 1 iron.

The difference in profitability is huge. Germany builds steel cheaper and the steamers, so they make more money with every steamer sold.

Does anyone know, which techs reduce resource cost?

Panther, I think the difference may be in China being Uncivilized. It's my understanding that Uncivilized nations run at lower industrial efficiency.

-C
 
Excellent and awesome work!!.


So maybe there could be added to the summary:

Use >60000 POPs for best efficiency (20000-<60000 give 75% efficiency; any size below <20000 give 50% efficiency.)

Convert your cultural minorities POPs into Capitalists (instead of using them as craftsmen or clerks) (size of capitalist POPs doesn't matter ?)

Uncivilised nations produce at lower efficiency than independent/great powers
 
Chema_Cagi said:
(size of capitalist POPs doesn't matter ?)
I have seen no difference (1.01).

Chema_Cagi said:
Uncivilised nations produce at lower efficiency than independent/great powers
In my China game a 100.000 craftsmen did produce exactly the same amount of steel like a North German for Prussia, but the difference in the amount of needed inputs was huge. I can't say how much of that is tech level related or because of the "uncivilized" status. It results in a big disadvantage in profitability.

Greetings to all Spanish players. :)
 
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Panther II said:
I have seen no difference.


In my China game a 100.000 craftsmen did produce exactly the same amount of steel like a North German for Prussia, but the difference in the amount of needed inputs was huge. I can't say how much of that is tech level related or because of the "uncivilized" status. It results in a big disadvantage in profitability.

Thanks for the info. Post like this of you are what makes to love the game :)


Btw, I have added a translation of the summary (and a link to the full explanation) at the spanish forum. Will edit with your clarifications.
 
In practice I have found that what you wind up mostly doing is using your national ethnic group for clerks and the minority ethnic groups as craftsmen. And then every so often you take a small minority POP and boost it twice (one to clerk, once to capitalist) in one fell swoop. Usually in your mixed ethnic group states you don't have enough national ethnic POPs to carry both the clerk and craftsman load.
 
It depends on the country you are playing. For the minorities, I use the biggest pops as soldiers or officers. Concerning clerks, e.g. you have 10 pops available to work in factories, then the 4 biggest get clerks, the rest craftsmen.
 
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Panther II said:
The best ratio in factories is 2 clerks and 3 craftsmen per factory.

The manual states: "There must be a ratio of at least four Craftsmen for every Clerk." You are saying 1.5 Craftsmen for every Clerk (3:2, instead of at least 4:1) is best? That is a much lower ratio. And does the POP size matter in these particular ratios, or no? :confused:
 
The manual is wrong.

The actual rule is as follows:

All factories must have at least one craftsman.
A factory of Level n can have up to n+1 clerks.
There may be other rules as well, and I'm too lazy right now to dig around and see, but the above will get you started. Basic rule of thumb is always have as many clerks in your factories as you can.
 
It's my experience that you can have two clerks per level of the factory, provided that you have at least one craftsman per level of the factory. The only time this is not true is when you have a small POP craftsman that dies out or merges with another POP leaving one or two clerks still in the factory.
 
pcasey said:
The manual is wrong.

The actual rule is as follows:

All factories must have at least one craftsman.
A factory of Level n can have up to n+1 clerks.

I thought it was 2n clerks. I know my level 2 factories have 4 clerks, my level 3s have 6, etc. In fact, if you have unemployed clerks and empty slots before you hit the upgrade button, the clerks'll move in early
:)


(i.e. my conservative empire Germany had oodles of unemployed clerks when I inherited everyone. I got dow'ed by both France and Russia, and so didn't have a lot of time to micromanage pops. My solution was to "grow into" my clerk totals, and I noted that when I hit upgrade on my 8/10 [missing 2 craftsmen] steel mill, 2 of the extra clerks moved in the next day. Couldn't of course add any more people for the intervening year, but the clerks hung around :) )
 
The manual was for 1.00a. 1.00b methinks has introduced the 1 clerk for 1 craftsman rule, which typically ends up 2 clerks for 3 craftsmen as the game selectively enforces that ratio. Sometimes it's 1 for 1, sometimes 1 for 4... :)

Also, I recall that immigrants from your own colonies can not work in factories, only in RGOs. I wonder if that is extended to all immigrants and all members of the wrong culture so that they all have to be used as capitalists.

The best test ground is the polish craftsman in Warsaw in 1836. Has anyone seen him move somewhere to work? He always sits home in my games whereas his fellow farmers run all over the globe.
 
actually a exploit on clerks: one can add 2 clerks after having just 1 craftsman in it for 3 pops working without having to fill the factory to get the second clerk...also if you add the craftman first you can demote him after adding clerks and the clerks are not usually booted fromt he factory..so one could theoretically make a dozen small factories to produce little stuff on side with 2 clerks running each ...with same effectiveness of having 3 pops for each with only 2/3rds the labor...obviously not good for the big factories you want but useful at times...havenet tested demoting higher level factories
 
Jagdmaus said:
The manual states: "There must be a ratio of at least four Craftsmen for every Clerk." You are saying 1.5 Craftsmen for every Clerk (3:2, instead of at least 4:1) is best?:
I have learned from EU2 and HOI to forget about the manual and only trust in things, I have testet (patches change the game, bugs).
Jagdmaus said:
That is a much lower ratio. And does the POP size matter in these particular ratios, or no? :confused:
It does not, see above.
 
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