Human puppet

Colonel Warden · 04-12-2003, 23:45

I was playing an interesting MP game this week (see China resurgent). Horse joined us for a session in 42 and took over USSR which had been abadoned by heinonen for USA when Germany had overrun most of it. With a human taking over USSR again, Germany (Cicero) decided to puppet the USSR, to save the time and labour of fighting his way to Vladivostok.

When USSR was made a puppet it joined the Axis and regained its prewar frontiers. This seemed like a good deal to me but Horse didn't like this. He started to sabotage the Axis position by:

a) removing military access for Germany
b) taking military control of Rumania and disbanding its divisions
c) DOWing every neutral country to make them part of the Allies

This behaviour seemed quite unethical to me because Horse was no longer playing to win or acting in the interest of his country. But Horse said that Cicero shouldn't have puppeted him - that this was an understood rule for MP game - that you don't puppet humans.

This disrupted the game a fair bit and so MP groups should be aware of this issue. Myself, I think that, if the game allows it then it should be allowed as it's not an exploit or unhistorical. The puppeted player should play along and, while he might be a reluctant ally, he should not try to sabotage the alliance in a blatant way because that is an exploit - in the real thing, he would have been deposed or shot quite quickly.

Andrew

Bluestew · 04-12-2003, 23:58

The rules should be discussed prior to the game. The default line of behavior should be that the puppeted player switches sides. There are arguments for both ways of playing but it is poor sportsmanship to try and ruin the game because you were beaten.

jgbaxter · 05-12-2003, 01:27

Rules be damned, unethical is just that, an exploit is just that as well.

There's no excuses for sabotaging a game like that IMO.

major ball · 05-12-2003, 06:31

Shouldnt puppet human players!!!

Colonel Warden · 05-12-2003, 11:58

Quote:

Originally posted by major ball
Shouldnt puppet human players!!!

You're welcome to your opinion but I'm not seeing any reasons. In the real life, being puppeted was the usual outcome - it was annexation that was unusual. And to be puppeted, a country has to lose its capital and most of its VPs so it's not that easy. What's the problem?

Andrew

juv95hrn · 05-12-2003, 17:18

DEG house rules prohibits puppetting of human players.

Its a decision based on game balance, not trying to be realistic or historically correct.

Colonel Warden · 05-12-2003, 18:21

Quote:

Originally posted by juv95hrn
DEG house rules prohibits puppetting of human players. Its a decision based on game balance...

Please expand on this. How is puppeting unbalanced? And are you saying that, if somone plays France, then Germany can't install a Vichy govt?

Andrew

varak · 06-12-2003, 00:43

Yes, please elaborate on the balance issues.

I always assumed that it was ok to puppet humans, and they should go along like good sports

But I've never actually seen it happen, so I am ignorant as to how it could unbalance a game.

Vissarion · 09-12-2003, 19:29

I think a puppeted player should either continue on as his new country (and for its alliance) or quit/change nation.

As for balance, if i recall correctly a puppeted nation will only have a max of 50 IC's (and if it has a land path to its master it will give all its resources). Its army shouldn't cause too much unbalance either, after all he did lose enough to get puppeted.

Vissarion · 09-12-2003, 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by redawn

Please expand on this. How is puppeting unbalanced? And are you saying that, if somone plays France, then Germany can't install a Vichy govt?

Andrew

Installing Vichy govt doesn't puppet France, only Vichy France.

I haven't experienced this either, maybe the DEG folks have.

Aldo · 11-12-2003, 10:34

Having a puppeted UK fighting against example the US would be silly. Yes, UK could have been forced to a (possibly humiliating) peace but they would never have actually changed side.

This doesn't go for all nations but puppeting majors isn't good for neither game balance nor historical reasons.

04-12-2003, 23:45	#1
Colonel Warden HoI Multiplayer Beta/Dev Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: London, UK Posts: 4,936	Human puppet I was playing an interesting MP game this week (see China resurgent). Horse joined us for a session in 42 and took over USSR which had been abadoned by heinonen for USA when Germany had overrun most of it. With a human taking over USSR again, Germany (Cicero) decided to puppet the USSR, to save the time and labour of fighting his way to Vladivostok. When USSR was made a puppet it joined the Axis and regained its prewar frontiers. This seemed like a good deal to me but Horse didn't like this. He started to sabotage the Axis position by: a) removing military access for Germany b) taking military control of Rumania and disbanding its divisions c) DOWing every neutral country to make them part of the Allies This behaviour seemed quite unethical to me because Horse was no longer playing to win or acting in the interest of his country. But Horse said that Cicero shouldn't have puppeted him - that this was an understood rule for MP game - that you don't puppet humans. This disrupted the game a fair bit and so MP groups should be aware of this issue. Myself, I think that, if the game allows it then it should be allowed as it's not an exploit or unhistorical. The puppeted player should play along and, while he might be a reluctant ally, he should not try to sabotage the alliance in a blatant way because that is an exploit - in the real thing, he would have been deposed or shot quite quickly. Andrew __________________ Play Doomsday in a Window Discuss WW2 History Last edited by redawn; 05-12-2003 at 00:18.

05-12-2003, 01:27	#3
jgbaxter HoI 2 Beta Tester Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 733	Rules be damned, unethical is just that, an exploit is just that as well. There's no excuses for sabotaging a game like that IMO. __________________ Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum - (Except Sweden hehe)

06-12-2003, 00:43	#8
varak Lt. General Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,261	Yes, please elaborate on the balance issues. I always assumed that it was ok to puppet humans, and they should go along like good sports But I've never actually seen it happen, so I am ignorant as to how it could unbalance a game. __________________ 'Those that can, do, and those that cannot, get annexed

09-12-2003, 19:29	#9
Vissarion The Royal Dutch of Dukes Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The Burgundy Loaf Posts: 1,275	I think a puppeted player should either continue on as his new country (and for its alliance) or quit/change nation. As for balance, if i recall correctly a puppeted nation will only have a max of 50 IC's (and if it has a land path to its master it will give all its resources). Its army shouldn't cause too much unbalance either, after all he did lose enough to get puppeted. __________________ "A lot of people think a lot of things about Hawaii" -Terry Twillstein "You can't trust a man what's made of gas" -Byron de la Beckwith VII, Racist in the Year 3000 Lord Ederon Multiplayer Forum

11-12-2003, 10:34	#11
Aldo Waiting for 3000 Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 2,578	Having a puppeted UK fighting against example the US would be silly. Yes, UK could have been forced to a (possibly humiliating) peace but they would never have actually changed side. This doesn't go for all nations but puppeting majors isn't good for neither game balance nor historical reasons. __________________ http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...d.php?t=245067

04-12-2003, 23:58	#2
Bluestew Strategy Junkie Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: USA, proud ally of Denmark! Posts: 585	The rules should be discussed prior to the game. The default line of behavior should be that the puppeted player switches sides. There are arguments for both ways of playing but it is poor sportsmanship to try and ruin the game because you were beaten.

05-12-2003, 06:31	#4
major ball General Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In a house Posts: 2,352	Shouldnt puppet human players!!!

05-12-2003, 17:18	#6
juv95hrn Field Marshal Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 2,551	DEG house rules prohibits puppetting of human players. Its a decision based on game balance, not trying to be realistic or historically correct.