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The Soviets always seem to totally crush the Finns no matter if it is the AI or a player. There needs to be something else done to make the war most costly for the Soviets so they decide to give up like they did historically.
 
Maybe the infrastructure is a bit too high on some of the border provinces. Lowering it might give the Finns some support during the first days.
 
The problem for me has been that Finland doesn't mobilize. Its divisions are at 33% strength and thus are mowed down in a blink. By the time Continuation War kicks in Finland has only around 8-12 understrength divisions.
 
I agree finland either needs to get more units or given alot more organization.

The problem isn´t that Finland is to weak, historically their 'army' in 1939 was mostly conscripted with WW1-equipment bought from Germany and to few divisions to even man the front properly. Their 'artillery' consisted of low calibre cannons that where even older and their airforce/navy was non existent. The problem in game is in my opinion that the Red Army is much to strong in 1939 since the effects of the Purges have been dealt with by that time. IRL the Red Army was still in total dissaray with understrength formations and a lack of even the most basic equipment including food and amunition. There where also a total lack of competent officers to lead the forces which lead to the disasters early on in the conflict.

I have several times said that the Purges in the USSR is the most poorly modelled event/series of events in the game and this also affects the Winter War conflict which becomes a walk in the park for the USSR player/AI. One option i would like to be tested is to put a substantial penalty on both morale and organisation for the USSR (applied via the Great Purge event) that lasts until after the Winter War is resolved since it wasn´t until after this disaster that Stalin finally realized just how unprepared the Red Army was for the anticipated conflict with Germany or the Allies.
 
The problem isn´t that Finland is to weak, historically their 'army' in 1939 was mostly conscripted with WW1-equipment bought from Germany and to few divisions to even man the front properly. Their 'artillery' consisted of low calibre cannons that where even older and their airforce/navy was non existent. The problem in game is in my opinion that the Red Army is much to strong in 1939 since the effects of the Purges have been dealt with by that time. IRL the Red Army was still in total dissaray with understrength formations and a lack of even the most basic equipment including food and amunition. There where also a total lack of competent officers to lead the forces which lead to the disasters early on in the conflict.

I have several times said that the Purges in the USSR is the most poorly modelled event/series of events in the game and this also affects the Winter War conflict which becomes a walk in the park for the USSR player/AI. One option i would like to be tested is to put a substantial penalty on both morale and organisation for the USSR (applied via the Great Purge event) that lasts until after the Winter War is resolved since it wasn´t until after this disaster that Stalin finally realized just how unprepared the Red Army was for the anticipated conflict with Germany or the Allies.

I know that Finland's army at the time was very weak but, I at least think they should be given higher org for the duration of the winter war, or use the mobility doctrine to represent the hit and run attacks they used or make a doctrine that deals with guerrilla warfare.
 
It's not all about equipment. The fact is the Finnish had better soldiers and tactics.
 
The problem isn´t that Finland is to weak, historically their 'army' in 1939 was mostly conscripted with WW1-equipment bought from Germany and to few divisions to even man the front properly. Their 'artillery' consisted of low calibre cannons that where even older and their airforce/navy was non existent. The problem in game is in my opinion that the Red Army is much to strong in 1939 since the effects of the Purges have been dealt with by that time. IRL the Red Army was still in total dissaray with understrength formations and a lack of even the most basic equipment including food and amunition. There where also a total lack of competent officers to lead the forces which lead to the disasters early on in the conflict.


This is not an entirely correct assessment of the situation in the Finnish army prior to the winter war. The Finnish military was indeed suffering from budget cuts mainly during the government of Prime Minister Cajander, the Finnish military was however definitely on par with most European nations, if not exemplary in matters of education levels, organisation/command structure and the quality of native equipment. There were some serious shortages of some types of vital equipment and military assets, such as field uniforms and artillery shells. Equipment used by the Finnish army was not at all obsolete compared to the situation for armies around the rest of Europe, contrary to popular belief Great War military equipment was definitely not useless or obsolete at the time of the early second world war, other than in the cases of equipment that had rapidly evolved during the period (such as armoured vehicles or aircraft, this does not apply to small arms or artillery however). Late 19th century and Great War equipment saw widespread use in all armies of World War 2.

The Finnish military did not make such extensive use of German equipment at the time of the winter war as you claim, although a substantial portion of the equipment were German or based on German designs, the lion's share of the equipment used was an assortment of inherited Russian czarist era equipment and imported Western equipment, including Swedish, French and British equipment along with a substantial amount of native equipment from a fairly advanced although small-scale Finnish military industrial complex that included the development of native fighter aircraft, spare parts manufcaturing and assembly of western tanks and aircraft, native automatic weapons and some of the most modern pieces of artillery in the world (that only saw widespread use in the war of 41-44).


I personally haven't had any difficulties lasting as long as Finland did in the real Winter war (the war of continuation is a different problem entirely, where the Soviets never seem to fail defeating Finland within months while ingnoring the defense against the Germans), so I find the problem to be in the AI. The Soviet AI should at all times keep a substantial portion of it's forces on the axis frontiers unless victory point provinces are occupied by another foe.
 
If any of you have played HoI III, there is a few mods that incorporate Ski troops which seem to make the war a bit more balanced.

Hopefully with the implementation of 1.3 allowing DH-modders to fully mod troops, this could become a possibility.
 
This is not an entirely correct assessment of the situation in the Finnish army prior to the winter war. The Finnish military was indeed suffering from budget cuts mainly during the government of Prime Minister Cajander, the Finnish military was however definitely on par with most European nations, if not exemplary in matters of education levels, organisation/command structure and the quality of native equipment. There were some serious shortages of some types of vital equipment and military assets, such as field uniforms and artillery shells. Equipment used by the Finnish army was not at all obsolete compared to the situation for armies around the rest of Europe, contrary to popular belief Great War military equipment was definitely not useless or obsolete at the time of the early second world war, other than in the cases of equipment that had rapidly evolved during the period (such as armoured vehicles or aircraft, this does not apply to small arms or artillery however). Late 19th century and Great War equipment saw widespread use in all armies of World War 2.

The Finnish military did not make such extensive use of German equipment at the time of the winter war as you claim, although a substantial portion of the equipment were German or based on German designs, the lion's share of the equipment used was an assortment of inherited Russian czarist era equipment and imported Western equipment, including Swedish, French and British equipment along with a substantial amount of native equipment from a fairly advanced although small-scale Finnish military industrial complex that included the development of native fighter aircraft, spare parts manufcaturing and assembly of western tanks and aircraft, native automatic weapons and some of the most modern pieces of artillery in the world (that only saw widespread use in the war of 41-44).


I personally haven't had any difficulties lasting as long as Finland did in the real Winter war (the war of continuation is a different problem entirely, where the Soviets never seem to fail defeating Finland within months while ingnoring the defense against the Germans), so I find the problem to be in the AI. The Soviet AI should at all times keep a substantial portion of it's forces on the axis frontiers unless victory point provinces are occupied by another foe.

Perhaps I where a bit harsh on the Finns but from what I have read in history books the shortages of most types of equipment including small arms and ammunition was quite severe on the Finnish side during the Winter War and this was only partly solved by the substantial number of guns captured from their Soviet adversaries. With this said the main problem is still that the Red Army is too good by the time in game with it´s forces mostly up to date and in good order at the outbreak of the war which is totally ahistorical.
 
Perhaps I where a bit harsh on the Finns but from what I have read in history books the shortages of most types of equipment including small arms and ammunition was quite severe on the Finnish side during the Winter War and this was only partly solved by the substantial number of guns captured from their Soviet adversaries. With this said the main problem is still that the Red Army is too good by the time in game with it´s forces mostly up to date and in good order at the outbreak of the war which is totally ahistorical.

I find the soviet aircraft are way way too strong, able to dissolve any division that's not dug in.
Other issue is that the remoteness of most of the soviet-finnish border isn't really represented well. While in real life the major theater was the Karelian Isthmus, what often happens is that the soviets come through the 'large', remote provinces to the north with absurd numbers of troops and any Finnish division which is forced to retreat is all but wiped out by CAS. In reality, Soviet attempts to break through on that front were a disaster - whole divisions being encircled and destroyed by more mobile Finnish troops.

I'm not sure how it could be reflected more accurately, since it really shouldn't be possible for the soviets to maintain 30 division stacks on Murmansk or anywhere near it. I'd suggest all the provinces should be lower infra, but I'm not sure it's a solution.
 
I find the soviet aircraft are way way too strong, able to dissolve any division that's not dug in.
Other issue is that the remoteness of most of the soviet-finnish border isn't really represented well. While in real life the major theater was the Karelian Isthmus, what often happens is that the soviets come through the 'large', remote provinces to the north with absurd numbers of troops and any Finnish division which is forced to retreat is all but wiped out by CAS. In reality, Soviet attempts to break through on that front were a disaster - whole divisions being encircled and destroyed by more mobile Finnish troops.

I'm not sure how it could be reflected more accurately, since it really shouldn't be possible for the soviets to maintain 30 division stacks on Murmansk or anywhere near it. I'd suggest all the provinces should be lower infra, but I'm not sure it's a solution.

You would have to enforce stacking penalty that is dependant on supply efficiency. I think that is what they did with Arsenal of Democracy.
 
Perhaps I where a bit harsh on the Finns but from what I have read in history books the shortages of most types of equipment including small arms and ammunition was quite severe on the Finnish side during the Winter War and this was only partly solved by the substantial number of guns captured from their Soviet adversaries. With this said the main problem is still that the Red Army is too good by the time in game with it´s forces mostly up to date and in good order at the outbreak of the war which is totally ahistorical.

Finland held off the might (by might i refer to sheer weight of numbers) of the Russian Army for 100 days by using hit and run and encirclement tactics. Having the home field advantage, facing a demoralised Army (due to Stalins purges) with no winter warfare equipment enabled the Finns to hit far above thier weight. I'm not denigrating the Finns when I say that, but when you are facing a country that can field an Army that is about 20-25% of your own population, theres only one eventual outcome, regardless of how good you are, you run out of ammunition and soldiers before they do.

The Finns sued for peace and lost Karelia in the process. Both sides got what they wanted. Finland kept its independance and Russia gained Karelia as a buffer zone against any potential German invasion route. OK it cost Finland dearly in land, and the Russians lost a LOT of troops.

Im not sure if my suggestions are possible, but to model this could we not :-

Ramp up the finnish infantry winter skills and ramp down the Russians
Decrease infrastructure throughout the border regions
Decrease bonuses for russian HQ units and increase those for The Finns.
Give Mannerheim a rating of 6 for the duration of the winter war.

The winter war is a fascinating study in small unit tactics and asymetric warfare, and it would be nice if this could be reflected in the game...but..it IS only a game after all.
 
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Given the scope of the game it's very difficult to properly simulate the Winter War, that's always been a problem. It's one of these scenarios where the lack of a proper supply system is most felt.

I guess keeping the USSR GDE low enough should do the trick, but I don't know at what levels it is currently set by the time of the Winter War (I haven't played DH Full for a while).
 
Finland wasn't going to be incorporated. Stalin had already set up a puppet government.
 
Finland wasn't going to be incorporated. Stalin had already set up a puppet government.

I must disagree on that. Fact is that the Baltic States initially became so called 'Soviet Socialist Republics' (SSR:s) when they where threatened into submission by the USSR. This meant a 'puppet' relationship where they had their own governments (obviously under full control of the USSR) and allowed the USSR free use of military bases. After a short period of time however these SSR:s 'voted' yes to be incorporated (annexed) into the USSR. There is absolutely nothing that points towards the conclusion that a 'puppeted' Finnish SSR wouldn´t suffer the same fate.