Can Finland win the winter war? DO they get anything for winning or just status quo?
I agree finland either needs to get more units or given alot more organization.The Soviets always seem to totally crush the Finns no matter if it is the AI or a player. There needs to be something else done to make the war most costly for the Soviets so they decide to give up like they did historically.
I agree finland either needs to get more units or given alot more organization.
The problem isn´t that Finland is to weak, historically their 'army' in 1939 was mostly conscripted with WW1-equipment bought from Germany and to few divisions to even man the front properly. Their 'artillery' consisted of low calibre cannons that where even older and their airforce/navy was non existent. The problem in game is in my opinion that the Red Army is much to strong in 1939 since the effects of the Purges have been dealt with by that time. IRL the Red Army was still in total dissaray with understrength formations and a lack of even the most basic equipment including food and amunition. There where also a total lack of competent officers to lead the forces which lead to the disasters early on in the conflict.
I have several times said that the Purges in the USSR is the most poorly modelled event/series of events in the game and this also affects the Winter War conflict which becomes a walk in the park for the USSR player/AI. One option i would like to be tested is to put a substantial penalty on both morale and organisation for the USSR (applied via the Great Purge event) that lasts until after the Winter War is resolved since it wasn´t until after this disaster that Stalin finally realized just how unprepared the Red Army was for the anticipated conflict with Germany or the Allies.
The problem isn´t that Finland is to weak, historically their 'army' in 1939 was mostly conscripted with WW1-equipment bought from Germany and to few divisions to even man the front properly. Their 'artillery' consisted of low calibre cannons that where even older and their airforce/navy was non existent. The problem in game is in my opinion that the Red Army is much to strong in 1939 since the effects of the Purges have been dealt with by that time. IRL the Red Army was still in total dissaray with understrength formations and a lack of even the most basic equipment including food and amunition. There where also a total lack of competent officers to lead the forces which lead to the disasters early on in the conflict.
This is not an entirely correct assessment of the situation in the Finnish army prior to the winter war. The Finnish military was indeed suffering from budget cuts mainly during the government of Prime Minister Cajander, the Finnish military was however definitely on par with most European nations, if not exemplary in matters of education levels, organisation/command structure and the quality of native equipment. There were some serious shortages of some types of vital equipment and military assets, such as field uniforms and artillery shells. Equipment used by the Finnish army was not at all obsolete compared to the situation for armies around the rest of Europe, contrary to popular belief Great War military equipment was definitely not useless or obsolete at the time of the early second world war, other than in the cases of equipment that had rapidly evolved during the period (such as armoured vehicles or aircraft, this does not apply to small arms or artillery however). Late 19th century and Great War equipment saw widespread use in all armies of World War 2.
The Finnish military did not make such extensive use of German equipment at the time of the winter war as you claim, although a substantial portion of the equipment were German or based on German designs, the lion's share of the equipment used was an assortment of inherited Russian czarist era equipment and imported Western equipment, including Swedish, French and British equipment along with a substantial amount of native equipment from a fairly advanced although small-scale Finnish military industrial complex that included the development of native fighter aircraft, spare parts manufcaturing and assembly of western tanks and aircraft, native automatic weapons and some of the most modern pieces of artillery in the world (that only saw widespread use in the war of 41-44).
I personally haven't had any difficulties lasting as long as Finland did in the real Winter war (the war of continuation is a different problem entirely, where the Soviets never seem to fail defeating Finland within months while ingnoring the defense against the Germans), so I find the problem to be in the AI. The Soviet AI should at all times keep a substantial portion of it's forces on the axis frontiers unless victory point provinces are occupied by another foe.
Perhaps I where a bit harsh on the Finns but from what I have read in history books the shortages of most types of equipment including small arms and ammunition was quite severe on the Finnish side during the Winter War and this was only partly solved by the substantial number of guns captured from their Soviet adversaries. With this said the main problem is still that the Red Army is too good by the time in game with it´s forces mostly up to date and in good order at the outbreak of the war which is totally ahistorical.
I find the soviet aircraft are way way too strong, able to dissolve any division that's not dug in.
Other issue is that the remoteness of most of the soviet-finnish border isn't really represented well. While in real life the major theater was the Karelian Isthmus, what often happens is that the soviets come through the 'large', remote provinces to the north with absurd numbers of troops and any Finnish division which is forced to retreat is all but wiped out by CAS. In reality, Soviet attempts to break through on that front were a disaster - whole divisions being encircled and destroyed by more mobile Finnish troops.
I'm not sure how it could be reflected more accurately, since it really shouldn't be possible for the soviets to maintain 30 division stacks on Murmansk or anywhere near it. I'd suggest all the provinces should be lower infra, but I'm not sure it's a solution.
Perhaps I where a bit harsh on the Finns but from what I have read in history books the shortages of most types of equipment including small arms and ammunition was quite severe on the Finnish side during the Winter War and this was only partly solved by the substantial number of guns captured from their Soviet adversaries. With this said the main problem is still that the Red Army is too good by the time in game with it´s forces mostly up to date and in good order at the outbreak of the war which is totally ahistorical.
Both sides got what they wanted.
This is not true at all. The USSR aimed at the total annexation of Finland but was uncapable of doing so, so it was forced to settle for less.
Interesting short video on what would've happened if Finland had accepted Stalin's demands like the Baltic countries did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Jw1WcxCr12Q#t=63s
Finland wasn't going to be incorporated. Stalin had already set up a puppet government.
Finland wasn't going to be incorporated. Stalin had already set up a puppet government.