Shadow of the Andes - An Interactive Chilean AAR

ThunderHawk3

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• Nov 18, 2011

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• #2.221

And here's a little something else I cooked up because I have too much time on my hands:

Expected Conservativity Index

Where 0 is most right-wing and 12 is least conservative.

Economic Policy:

Planned Economy: 3
Laissez-Faire: 2
Interventionism: 1
State Capitalism: 0

Religious Policy:
Atheism: 3
Secularism: 2
Pluralism: 1
Moralism: 0

Citizenship Policy:
Full Citizenship: 2
Limited Citizenship: 1
Residency: 0

Trade Policy:
Free Trade: 1
Protectionism: 0

Military Policy:
Pacifism: 3
Anti-Military: 2
Pro-Military: 1
Jingoism: 0

Carlos Andonie ((rudders10)): 2+2+1+1=6+religion (Liberal)
Jorge Gales ((WelshDude)): 1+1+2+0+1 = 5 <Assumed> (Conservador)
Cesar Roseno ((Red Cesar)): 1+2+2+0+0 = 5 (Nacional)
Karl Weissmüller ((yourworstnightm)): 1+1+2+1+0= 5 (Independiente)
Sebastian Carrow ((Seek75)): 2+0+2+0+0=4 (Nacional)
Armando de Vasces ((OConner)): 1+0+1+0+1=3 (Conservador)
Antonio Disraeli ((Rogov)): 0+0+0+0+1 =1 (Tradicional)

As expected, the Liberales are clearly the most liberal and the Tradicionales the most right-wing by this metric. However, the Nacionales, Conservadores, and Independientes are not as clear cut. Indeed, the Nacionales by this measurement tend to be more liberal on average than the Conservadores. And, despite accusations of Weissmuller's liberal persuasions, his objective policies are nearly identical to the Nacional patriarch Roseno's - they differ only in Pluralism versus Secularism and Free Trade versus Protectionism.

EDIT: For comparison, Rivera in the last election would have been at 0+0+1+0+0=1, while Romano would have been at 1+0+0+0+1=2.

 

Last edited: Nov 18, 2011

rudders10

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Sep 20, 2011

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• Nov 18, 2011

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• #2.222

(( cheers for that, very interesting))

 

Revan529

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Mar 28, 2009

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• Nov 18, 2011

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• #2.223

((Hmmm. I would be a seven or eight, depending on foreign affairs: 2+1+2+1+(1OR 2) = 7 (OR 8). So... I'm one of the more liberal members of Chilean society? Doesn't surprise me. Though personally I don't consider a planned economy liberal; it's really another form of government control and is therefore anti-liberal if we look at liberalism in the traditional, small government sense

This is what happens when I'm done with classwork and boredom sets in))

 

tamius23

Indefatigable Psychotic

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Feb 12, 2011

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• Nov 18, 2011

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• #2.224

((If you really have too much time on your hands, play some Werewolf, you won't have any afterwards . I'm running the next game))

I reckon that makes me what, 7, when I ran for the monarchists. Hmm, I'll go back and check which policies I had, I've forgotten.

 

ThunderHawk3

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• #2.225

Riccardo93 said:

Though personally I don't consider a planned economy liberal; it's really another form of government control and is therefore anti-liberal if we look at liberalism in the traditional, small government sense

Click to expand...

It's not meant to measure liberalism; it's meant to measure conservativism. If you don't get what I mean, let me explain: the highly ranked policies merely deviate from conservative/reactionary positions. They're not necessarily liberal. For example, Planned Economy is a communist position, not a liberal position, but it's even further from the conservative/reactionary positions than Laissez-Faire, so it's a 3.

EDIT: In other words, 0 means 0 deviance from the most conservative/reactionary stance you could possibly take.

 

rudders10

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Sep 20, 2011

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• Nov 18, 2011

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• #2.226

((with the religon added i would be an 8, hee hee))

 

Zzzzz...

No blood! No bone! No ash!

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Feb 27, 2008

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• Nov 18, 2011

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• #2.227

((So you're saying that State Capitalism is more "old-skul" than Interventionism?))

 

ThunderHawk3

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Zzzzz... said:

((So you're saying that State Capitalism is more "old-skul" than Interventionism?))

Click to expand...

It's not a perfect metric, but I consider it to be the most conservative policy.

 

Revan529

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Mar 28, 2009

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• Nov 18, 2011

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• #2.229

((Ah... that makes sense, though I still think Laissez Faire is more different than a planned economy, state capitalism, and interventionism, since all connote a degree of government control; and isn't all authoritarianism inherently conservative to a point?))

 

Seek75

Share Our Wealth!

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Oct 7, 2010

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• Nov 18, 2011

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• #2.230

((I dunno, you could have a Robespierre/Napoleonic type of authoritarianism if you really wanted to, although I'm assuming anarcho-liberals haven't appeared yet.))

 

Revan529

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• Nov 18, 2011

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((It just doesn't make sense to me: anarcho-liberal authoritarianism. It's very oxymoronic. To support no government but be a dictator, now would you maintain power when you want to destroy the instruments of that institution?))

 

yourworstnightm

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Jul 9, 2004

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• Nov 18, 2011

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Riccardo93 said:

((It just doesn't make sense to me: anarcho-liberal authoritarianism. It's very oxymoronic. To support no government but be a dictator, now would you maintain power when you want to destroy the instruments of that institution?))

Click to expand...

OOC: It's supposed to represent Robespierre like regimes. It's of course a little weird since the French Revolution happened before the game starts.

 

thekinguter

Caudillo

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Sep 16, 2009

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• Nov 18, 2011

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• #2.233

Riccardo93 said:

((Hmmm. I would be a seven or eight, depending on foreign affairs: 2+1+2+1+(1OR 2) = 7 (OR 8). So... I'm one of the more liberal members of Chilean society? Doesn't surprise me. Though personally I don't consider a planned economy liberal; it's really another form of government control and is therefore anti-liberal if we look at liberalism in the traditional, small government sense

This is what happens when I'm done with classwork and boredom sets in))

Click to expand...

I'm 7 as well, and the scale is from left wing to right wing, so I'm not surprised that a planned economy is the most leftist policy..

 

ThunderHawk3

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I didn't mean to start a whole discussion about the definitions of liberalism; maybe we should keep the OOC philosophy to a minimum.

I haven't gotten any new ballots since my last election update. I'll close the polls at 6 PM PST tonight.

 

unmerged(252567)

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• #2.235

yourworstnightm said:

OOC: It's supposed to represent Robespierre like regimes. It's of course a little weird since the French Revolution happened before the game starts.

Click to expand...

(( This is a tangent and should probably no longer go on in this thread. I could have some very wordy things to say about just how historically accurate laissez-faire authoritarianism is, and I have just as much right to say them as Riccardo has to say the opposite, so let's just nip this in the bud here and now.

On the Victoria-relevant conversation about the Anarcho-Liberal ideology in game, while this is too off topic for the thread it is at least not a political theory topic but a history/game topic. So, historically speaking, my comment here is that the liberal revolutionaries like the Jacobins would be better called Radicals or just Liberal Revolutionaries than Anarcho-Liberals, but what can you do? It's just that representing the French Revolution and Springtime of Nations type liberal uprisings better, they were extremely nationalistic rather than anarchistic; what is really trying to be represented in this period are the Enlightened ideals inspired nationalists who sought to create national identities not dependent on interchangeable European monarch families often of different nationalities than the nations they were ruling. ))

 

ThunderHawk3

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Rogov said:

(( This is a tangent and should probably no longer go on in this thread. I could have some very wordy things to say about just how historically accurate laissez-faire authoritarianism is, and I have just as much right to say them as Riccardo has to say the opposite, so let's just nip this in the bud here and now. ))

Click to expand...

Guys, please stop talking about this. Thanks.

 

loki100

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• Nov 18, 2011

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just to back up Thunderhawk3 ... this debate really belongs on the main V2 forum

 

ThunderHawk3

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• Nov 19, 2011

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The 1856 Conventions​

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The Conventions of 1856 provided Chile with a field of three candidates, an election the likes of which hadn't been seen in more than ten years, since before the coup. Going into the Conventions, each party was estimated to have roughly equal strength and sway over the various electors, and for once election observers were baffled by what might well have become a toss-up between four parties. Because any of the seven candidates in the primaries was equally likely to become the President, or so it seemed, careful attention was given to the conventions.

The unopposed races - the Liberales and the Tradicionales - were simple enough. In the former, the Liberal Candidate Carlos Andonie faced nominal resistance from the self-styled unity independent, Weismuller, but Andonie was ultimately able to pull the Liberal caucus to his camp with ease. Andonie's victory was also Weismuller's defeat. As no other parties had seriously considered nominating him, he would not even be on the ballot in 1856. Meanwhile, in the Tradicionales, party patriarch Francisco Rivera stepped aside to prove the party was more than just himself. Antonio Disraeli, the famed Minister of Church and Culture under Romano, stepped to the forefront and was enthusiastically nominated by the convention.

The Liberales extended an offer of coalition to the Conservadores while the Tradicionales gave the same to the Nacionales - both offers were turned down. The Conservadores, it seemed, were still smarting from their perceived losses during the Badajoz years and batted away the Liberal offer. The Nacionales, for their part, were not about to lock arms with the party that had just halved their numbers in a contentious breakaway. Instead, the Nacionales and Conservadores turned to each other.

The Conservadores hosted a hotly contested race between Armando de Vasces and Jorge Gales; after considerable effort on both sides, de Vasces pulled ahead. Things were more clear-cut in the Nacionales primaries, where party elder Cesar Roseno easily edged out Sebastian Carrow, who was seen as a suspicious outsider by the caucus. Both parties overwhelmingly voting to unify their caucuses, forming the second Conservadores Nacionales ((National Conservatives)) ticket and the third union between the two parties in 15 years. The combined convention, with overwhelming support from the Nacionales' caucus and marginal of the same from the Conservadores, nominated General Cesar Roseno - a veteran of twenty years and the defender of Patagonia - as their candidate.


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Player Actions Needed:
Just wait.

 

Last edited: Nov 22, 2011

Seek75

Share Our Wealth!

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Oct 7, 2010

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• Nov 19, 2011

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• #2.239

Alas, how few votes for me! It seems the Nacionales aren't quite as receptive to my quasi-liberal policies as I hoped they would have been.

Congratulations on your nomination, General Roseno. Truthfully, your platform was not very different than mine, but it matters little now. Good luck in the presidential race!

 

ThunderHawk3

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The 1856 Candidates​

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Liberales Candidate: Carlos Andonie ((rudders10))​

Laissez-Faire/Secularism/Full Citizenship/Free Trade/Pro Military

My friends and countrymen. I have decided that I must put myself forward for the Liberales party. WE must ensure there is a balance in politics in this country and I am the candidate who can and will deliver this. I am new to politics and untainted by the scandals of before and have the following as my core beliefs.

We MUST do more to promote free trade for this is the way to economic freedom. Hand in hand with this is a removal of Government from the economy. The market knows best how to run itself without intervention from us. I am a firm believer in free citizenship as we should encourage people to our country and reward them for working hard to make our country better. And i fully support the military although not at the cost of the economy.

Please, vote for me and a better Chile.

Conservadores Nacionales Candidate: Cesar Roseno ((Red Cesar))​

Interventionism/Secularism/Full Citizenship/Protectionism/Jingoism

Pro-Military/Jingoistic: I support the creation of several new battalions of infantry, as well as artillery, to bolster our fores for the inevitable conflict with our vulturous neighbors. I have said it in previous years, and I will say it again, we must strike first before we are caught off guard! As well, I support the establishment of a powerful naval force, giving us an edge over our traitorous neighbors.

Full Citizenship/Secularization: No one should be denied entry to the glorious Fatherland on the basis of race, nationality, or religion. We can not allow our country and its citizens to be divided along such ignorant lines! Government aid to religious organizations and tolerance of hatred acts, just propels us to intolerance! We are all Chileans, equal and united, we are strong!

Interventionism: While free trade within Chile has proven most beneficial, added government aid could prove substantially helpful in re-directing the capitalists efforts to expanding our industry, and putting poor, low class Chileans to work. I wish to turn Chile into a South American powerhouse, with an industry far exceeding that of our neighbors. A military supplied by our very own industry, would be completely free of greedy foreign influences!

Tradicionales Candidate: Antonio Disraeli ((Rogov))​

State Capitalism/Moralism/Residency/Protectionism/Pro Military

Economic policy of lower taxes on wealthy job creators, higher taxes on the lower orders, and business subsidies.

With our policy of State Capitalism we shall reinvigorate our industry, building factories to kick start an industrial renaissance in Chile.


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Player Actions Needed:
VOTE! I need your vote for either Adonie, Roseno, or Disraeli. If you vote by party, I will pair your vote to the corresponding ticket.

As always, remember to bold your votes or they might not be counted.

If you're a candidate and you want to change your platform or picture from the above, just let me know.

A sample ballot would look like:
President: Abstain

This poll will end at 6:00 PST on the 20th (two days) or if 25 votes are reached before that.

Yeah, big pictures this time. Kudos to anyone who knows who the portraits are really of without looking it up.