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"While I agree with much comrade Bautista has to say, unity is a core foundation among the workers movement. Dividing ourselves only serves the cause of the oppressors, of the imperialists. While I am not one to compromise my views for the sake of electability, I am sure we can find some place in a Workers State for the proud members of the FNT. We must not divide, but unite. It is the only way to break the chains of oppression, and end the inevitable bloodshed, and torment that imperialism brings."

-Comrade Armando Renin
 
At some point it may well be necessary to form a coalition with our FNT counterparts, I find it disheartening to learn that a presidential candidate from my own party is so willing to forsake a pure Communist agenda purely from fear of an increasingly small group of reactionaries in government. If we are to bring about the rule of the worker then we must not be so willing to compromise our views at the first sign of disparate opposition from the far-right.
But we and the FNT have the same goal, to create a republic by the worker and for the worker, if we allow to much animosity to come between us when push comes to shove much like last election some may not vote with us. That and it's not some small group the government is run by reactionary's.
I also find your use of the term reactionary surprising in that you would go so far as to brand the Liberal Andonie's administration with a term only used to describe the insane monarchists of the past (the disgraced Angelo Araya, Jorge Roseno, and other deluded fools) as well as the far-right of today, like Wiessmuller. If we as a nation and a government are to make strides towards the future it will not be due to unnecessary name calling. The Liberales may be our political rivals but so far they have not tried in any way to silence our opposition to their administration. We should be appreciative to the Liberales that they have taken the high road at a time when many on the right would pressure them to act against us.

---Basilio Bautista---
The Liberales, lied to their own allies and sparked great dissunity in the nation to serve their own needs, which are the needs of the bourgeouise upper class, they wish to further deregulate business's to have their way with the worker, and you forget to mention the multiple Liberale coup attempts we have also had in the past.
 
And yet, we as Liberales support the freedom of expression, the freedom of beliefs, the freedom of thought, the freedom of economy, and general all purpose freedom, that no other party can claim. One cannot condemn a party for past grievances, if that was the case then all current parties should be banned.
 
Who said what you believe in is economic freedom, other than yourselves? One's own philosophers can name one's movement anything. Do you really think the Nationalists are good for the nations, or in your opinion are we Socialists very social or those of who identify as Communists very interested in the Community? By what logic then can you claim that being for the policies Liberalism identified as economic freedom are, in an objective sense or in the eyes of the majority of the people, libertarian in nature - or that is to say - economic freedom?

Claiming the wage system as one of freedom for the individual requires all sorts of mental gymnastics and relies on a large handful of "first truths", that is preconceived notions. What makes you a liberal, and thus a Liberal party member, is that you accept those preconceived notions as your own; and indeed they may have been your own.

But on what grounds do you claim those preconceptions to be either objectively correct and thus correct regardless of popularity or correct in the eyes of the people?

If all it takes to make a certain set of economic beliefs the belief in economic freedom is claiming it to be so adamantly, then the Nationalists believe in economic freedom.

It all depends on one's preconditions and one's prejudices. For instance, because you are a liberal you are inclined to give no weight to the possibility that the name liberalism - evoking liberty - was as much an act of propaganda as the Nationalists using a term that usually has positive connotations "nation" to identify themselves.

Saying you believe in economic freedom, or freedom of any kind, is an empty statement. It is how you define freedom that matters. And we all know that the way you define freedom is filled with logical errors and outright falsehoods. For instance you claim that freedom is non-intervention, and the the purpose of good government is to prevent unwilling intervention of one person upon another person; yet the economic system you define as being "free" in that context is, by your own standard of freedom, entirely not free; as economic success in the liberal economic system relies entirely on government intervention harmfully upon the persons of others.

So think next time before you claim to the workers and farmers of Chile that the privilege capitalist government grants to certain individuals by giving them an power they do not themselves possess, to claim more natural territory than they can use, is economic freedom. If you truly believe it to be so, then you do not, no matter what you say, define freedom as non-intervention and personal autonomy from the harmful influences of others. The entire substructure of the economic system you are claiming to be free is of force and theft, and of setting one group above others through that state force.

After all, even if we were to accept the liberal philosophers' definition of natural law, an ideal world where no one is able to intervene against others and the works of others against those others' will, then no man would possess the right - the natural right or negative liberty - to walk into a previously undiscovered valley and claim ownership of it. That is not a right that, by the natural law laid out in liberal philosophy, any man possesses. It is, by your own liberal principles, an artificial right - a positive liberty - a government subsidy or program such as the social reforms we favor.

The only reason you are able to call that economic freedom, when by your own underpinnings of philosophy it is not a state of freedom at all, is because you and others like you have called it such for a long time. As that is the only claim to truth you have for that statement, that would identify your underlying values not as liberal as you define liberal but as what most people objective consider to be conservative.

You do not believe the economic system you represent is free because it is by your philosophies free, as it is not, you believe it to be free because it has been the economic system for such a long time and you believe the status quo is good and freedom is good therefore the status quo is freedom.

Simply put, as if the differences between the Republicanos and Liberales weren't vanishly rare already, you and the other Liberales in Chile and across the world, are merely conservatives. No more no less, no worst no better. You are merely agents of the status quo, of the definitions of freedom that are subjective to the well being of the bourgeoisie at the expense of all others, because those definitions were created by the bourgeoisie when they revolutionized the world.

If you wonder where communistas gain our predilection for understanding the value of political education and propaganda, it is from you liberals - after all, the entire way political terms are defined in this age have all been decided by liberals and as such are liberal propaganda designed to prejudice people in favor of liberal ideas and to make it easy for liberals to dismiss well reasoned arguments such as this, because they have the weight of history and the approval of the state on their side.

How you can claim to be some sort of rebel against tyranny, some heroic underdog when your entire philosophy is only so prominent - yet not prominent enough for a majority or even a plurality of the population to support it, hence all your cross-ideological coalitions - is because it is the official state ideology, and the official cultural ideology of much of the world? The fact that liberalism is called liberalism and manner call the economics you believe in free market are no more proof that your beliefs represent liberty and freedom than if a nationalist or a communist society was dominant and communism or nationalism was called liberalism and the economics called free market economics.

By refusing to even dignify intellectual arguments based upon liberal philosophy, treating them as absurdities when people have been using the terms you use for so long, you are resting the weight of your argument entirely on one factor - not the truth or even your ability for rhetoric, but on the subsidy of the state in favor of a certain ideology.

By any objective, reasonable standard, the Liberales and liberalism represent the official state ideology of the world-wide establishment; an entire planet's worth of wealthy capitalists who have been saying that 1 + 1 is 3 for so long that they think just repeating it counts as a winning argument.
 
At some point it may well be necessary to form a coalition with our FNT counterparts, I find it disheartening to learn that a presidential candidate from my own party is so willing to forsake a pure Communist agenda purely from fear of an increasingly small group of reactionaries in government. If we are to bring about the rule of the worker then we must not be so willing to compromise our views at the first sign of disparate opposition from the far-right.

I also find your use of the term reactionary surprising in that you would go so far as to brand the Liberal Andonie's administration with a term only used to describe the insane monarchists of the past (the disgraced Angelo Araya, Jorge Roseno, and other deluded fools) as well as the far-right of today, like Wiessmuller. If we as a nation and a government are to make strides towards the future it will not be due to unnecessary name calling. The Liberales may be our political rivals but so far they have not tried in any way to silence our opposition to their administration. We should be appreciative to the Liberales that they have taken the high road at a time when many on the right would pressure them to act against us.

---Basilio Bautista---

I would thank the comrade for his statements. While we have vast differences we have always stood for the freedom of all parties to be able to express their views. I would also point out to Juarez that the Liberals Coups he is referring to were over 40 years ago. There have been uprisings since but none supported by Liberals. All memebers of the current Nuevo Liberales party fought for freedom in all the past coups. Without that support the reactionaries you are talking about might actually be in power and your parties banned
,

Presidente Andonie
 
((if rogov gets elected he will have to create a ministry of long winded speeches :) ))
 
"While I agree with much comrade Bautista has to say, unity is a core foundation among the workers movement. Dividing ourselves only serves the cause of the oppressors, of the imperialists. While I am not one to compromise my views for the sake of electability, I am sure we can find some place in a Workers State for the proud members of the FNT. We must not divide, but unite. It is the only way to break the chains of oppression, and end the inevitable bloodshed, and torment that imperialism brings."

-Comrade Armando Renin

I feel I must point out Señor, that it was you, the Communists, who chose to divide the Worker's movement. The reponsibility of the current situation lies solely on the Radical Socialists. Not that the FNT pre-split would ever have been able to maintain cohesiveness with such a number of disparate parts.

- Sérgio Gogołów
 
((It's actually really good. It attacks the logical fallacy of support for capitalism being combined with support of some sort of natural law claiming negative liberties. Rogov, you a political philosophy student?))

(( No, I'm just finally playing a character - a former Jacobin anarcho-liberal turned communist, who it makes sense to use the same argument I seem to get stuck on any time I'm taking the left wing position against free market capitalism in these interactive AARs; which is basically to just use the anarchist/classical libertarian critique of capitalism. I won't go into more detail because I don't want OOC politics arguments; so I'll refer to the critique without actually critiquing classical liberal philosophy. ))
 
I would thank the comrade for his statements. While we have vast differences we have always stood for the freedom of all parties to be able to express their views. I would also point out to Juarez that the Liberals Coups he is referring to were over 40 years ago. There have been uprisings since but none supported by Liberals. All memebers of the current Nuevo Liberales party fought for freedom in all the past coups. Without that support the reactionaries you are talking about might actually be in power and your parties banned
,

Presidente Andonie

With the exception of the anarcho-liberal rebellion backed by your president.
Also I would like to congratulate comrade Guererro for his excellent argument against the faux liberals. You right for any socialist papers?
 
The 1886 Primaries: An Unstable Primary​

((Yeah, yeah, yeah. Later. I'm busy this morning. We'll just get on to voting for the moment.))


Primary Candidates



Liberales Nuevos Candidates: ((Party of Power))

Lorenzo Subercaseaux, ((Lyonessian)) - Jingoism/Atheism/Laissez-Faire/Free Trade/Full Citizenship [0+3+2+1+2=8]

Armin Tamzarian, ((hoi2geek)) - Pro Military/Secularism/Laissez-Faire/Free Trade/Full Citizenship [1+2+2+1+2=8]

Republicanos Candidates: ((In Coalition))

Severiano Miramontes, ((Ivir Baggins)) - Pro Military/Pluralism/State Capitalism/Protectionism/Full Citizenship [1+1+0+0+2=4]

Pedro Rivera, ((atomicsoda)) - Pro Military/Moralism/Interventionism/Free Trade/Limited Citizenship [1+0+1+1+1=4]

Patriotas Candidates: ((In Opposition))

Augusto Weissmüller, ((yourworstnightm)) - Jingoism/Moralism/State Capitalism/Protectionism/Residency [0+0+0+0+0=0]

FNT Candidates: ((In Opposition))

Sérgio Gogołów, ((Dyranum)) - Anti-Military/Secularism/Interventionism/Protectionism/Full Citizenship [2+2+1+0+2=7]

Comunista Candidates: ((In Opposition))

Osvaldo Tamiuszski, ((tamius23)) - Pacifism/Atheism/Planned Economy/Protectionism/Full Citizenship [3+3+3+0+2=11]

Armando Renin, ((Red Cesar)) - Pro Military/Atheism/Planned Economy/Protectionism/Full Citizenship [1+3+3+0+2=9]

Dio Guerrero, ((Rogov)) - Pro-Military/Pluralism/State Capitalism (Sort of)/Free Trade/Full Citizenship [1+1+0+1+2=5]

-------------------------

Player Actions Needed:
As always, let me know if I've screwed something up.

It's time vote in the primaries again, and you know the drill by this point, right? As before, you vote on your favorite candidate if there is no coalition, your preferred coalition, and your preferred candidate if there is a coalition.

As a reminder, AGITATORS ARE DISENFRANCHISED AND CANNOT RUN FOR OFFICE OR VOTE!

Here's a sample ballot below.

Party: Republicanos
Candidate: Abstain
Coalition: With FNT/With Liberales/With Nacionales/With Comunistas/With more than one/No Coalition/Abstain
Coalition Candidate: Abstain

Since we're back to coalition voting, candidates can vote. We're voting on Chief of Staff later.

I'll give this two days to vote, ending 10 AM PST (6 PM GMT, I believe) on the 27th. I may cut it short if we get enough votes in quickly (25 or more by two days from now), as unlikely as that now seems.
 
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Party: FNT
Candidate: Sérgio Gogołów ((I keep asking myself why I include this.))
Coalition: With Liberales
Coalition Candidate: Sérgio Gogołów

In accordance with the decision made by the Pre-Election Committee, I support a coalition with the Liberales. I hope that the rest of the membership abide by its decision as well. Otherwise, this system might fall apart due to bad precedents.

Additionally, here are my policies:
Protectionism (compromise to Free Trade is possible)
Interventionism
Secularism
Full Citizenship
Anti-Military

- FNT Chairman Sérgio Gogołów
 
party: fnt
candidate: sérgio gogołów ((i keep asking myself why i include this.))
coalition: with liberales
coalition candidate: sérgio gogołów

in accordance with the decision made by the pre-election committee, i support a coalition with the liberales. I hope that the rest of the membership abide by its decision as well. Otherwise, this system might fall apart due to bad precedents.

Additionally, here are my policies:
Protectionism (compromise to free trade is possible)
interventionism
secularism
full citizenship
anti-military

- fnt chairman sérgio gogołów
((nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo))
 
Party: FNT
Candidate: Sérgio Gogołów
Coalition: With Liberales
Coalition Candidate: Sérgio Gogołów
 
Party: Comunistas
Candidate: Osvaldo Tamiuszski
Coalition: With FNT
Coalition Candidate: Osvaldo Tamiuszski


"Once more, my comrades! One more election, and Chile will see a socialist government before the end of the year!"

-Osvaldo Tamiuszski
 
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((nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo))

(:)rofl:. That's how it goes when democracy is involved. So sorry, mate.
Also, what happened to all the capital letters?))
 
Party: Comunistas
Candidate: Osvaldo Tamiuszski
Coalition: With FNT
Coalition Candidate: Osvaldo Tamiuszski


-Once more, my comrades! One more election, and Chile will see a socialist government before the end of the year!

-Osvaldo Tamiuszski

((the liberals are planning a series of parties when they win so you may have a SOCIAL government))