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There is almost no support in exporting arms in the USA, but it seems the government just sort of ignores what most folks want unless its important enough to mess with their reelection chances. We've sort of noticed a trend of us ending up having exported weapons used against us later. :wacko: And a lot of us are getting really tired of the same politicians who keep preaching about the deficit preaching at the same time about how we need this absurd navy and any little cut will spell our DOOM. I mean, really, whats the point in having 12 aircraft carriers instead of 10? Who in the world are we planning on fighting?

As far as I know, we have 4 naval shipyards.
There are two Navy owned ones... Bath and Norfolk, and two private ones... Another in Norfolk/Newport News and our main submarine builder in Connecticut.
 
The reason the USN wants 11 aircraft carriers is that the USN wants to have 3 carriers deployed overseas. And the reason the USN wants to keep on building carriers / submarines is that if the US stops building those ships, then the ability to build them will be dramatically reduced. Human capital is hard to replace and rebuild. As an example, if I recall correctly the British had significant problems designing their latest class of nuclear submarines before the USN sent over experts to help.

To the issue of modern military aircraft: this is a quite complicated problem. On one hand, if you aren't stealthy and equipped with advanced EW gear then the plane probably won't have a very long expected lifespan over heavily contested enemy territory. On the other hand, building stealthy and EW equipped aircraft is very expensive and has resulted in both declining numbers of airframes and declining production rates, leading to poorly ability to absorb battle losses. This isn't a clear cut answer and until the next major power war occurs, involving two technologically capable adversaries, this problem can't be answered. We do know, however, that smaller and advanced forces do have a significant advantage over numerically superior and less advanced forces, see Israel's wars, esp. Bekka Valley (sp), and the wars in Iraq and over Serbia. So, there is historical arguments for more advanced aircraft. And, Western countries aren't about to return to the traditional view of fighters; which puts them as a highly expendable commodity (see WW2).

Finally, about UAVs, I am far less certain that UAVs will be the future of warfare, in the near term. The overriding problem for UAVs right now is control. Most UAVs are "remotely piloted," that is there is someone controlling the plane at all times, as I'm sure people here know. What happens to those "remotely piloted" airframes when the opposition has either a credible air defense, Predator's aren't exactly the most maneuverable planes out there, or has a power EW capability? In that case, many of the medium sized UAVs will be nearly useless. Only those large and designed to stay away from hostile fire or those too small and primarily in LoS control will be useful. Add to that the fact that if UAVs want to be able to respond to SAM launches, they have to have certain degrees of autonomous control, and the inevitability of UAVs becomes much less certain.

Long run, probably it will be UAVs because nothing else airborne will survive...
 
As far as I know, we have 4 naval shipyards.
There are two Navy owned ones... Bath and Norfolk, and two private ones... Another in Norfolk/Newport News and our main submarine builder in Connecticut.

But only ship builders of note, GD and NGC?

Compare that to Europe where nearly every country has one despite the fact that the rest of the globe learnt to make their own ships some time ago.

It's an astonishing waste because of petty nationalism.
 
There is mass production and R&D duplication in Europe. How many Ship builders do we have? 7+ How many does the USA have? 2? Yet we have half the resources.

USA is one nation with one military. Europe is a subcontinent of many sovereign nations that each have their own military. Your comparison is completely invalid, it's like saying that Africa or South America has duplication in it's armed forces.

"Petty nationalism" is also an inane argument, because it can be used on all scales up to a global one. For instance USA and China are "petty nationalists" because they don't build the same military hardware.
 
USA is one nation with one military. Europe is a subcontinent of many sovereign nations that each have their own military. Your comparison is completely invalid, it's like saying that Africa or South America has duplication in it's armed forces.

No it's not like saying that Africa or South America has a duplication in its armed forces. That is something quite different.

What I am saying is that it's a terrible waste having multiple duplicating production facilities and overlapping R&D capabilities supporting many armed forces when you could have just two.

The reason we have wasteful duplication production capabilities for many armed forces is because of petty nationalism within Europe. With diminishing budgets one by one the weaker companies will go under and Europeans will have to acquire foreign equipment with disadvantageous offsets and exchanges rather than having international champions supporting many different armed forces within the EU. This has being going on extensively over the past 10 years already and will continue to occur more rapidly over the next decade. The next step is that the national champions will start to go out of business or be forced to merge. So it will continue to occur, only in an uncontrollable, wasteful manner and we might not like what we are left with. So rather than having a prime contractor in France, a Comms contractor in spain, a radar champion in italy and an engine contractor in germany, all of whom can effectively compete globally we are left with weakened companies unable to support themselves within their own home markets.

Just look at what occured in armoured vehicle manufacturing against what occured with Missiles over the past 20 years. Missiles, a huge success whilst armoured vehicles is not. One market has EU wide global champion, the other does not, it just has a series of increasingly insignificant companies, many of whom have disappeared and have lost an extraordinarily amount of market share; well over 50% according to a project I once worked on.
 
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I know there is a sense here, accurately or inaccurately, that we're basically paying for the defense of quite a few European nations that are downsizing their militaries.(Exceptions are the UK, Sweden, Germany, Poland and France obviously)
I was rather flabbergasted when countries started running out of munitions duing the Libyan Intervention... so it does seems like some countries don't have the military they probably should.
 
I know there is a sense here, accurately or inaccurately, that we're basically paying for the defense of quite a few European nations that are downsizing their militaries.(Exceptions are the UK, Sweden, Germany, Poland and France obviously)
I was rather flabbergasted when countries started running out of munitions duing the Libyan Intervention... so it does seems like some countries don't have the military they probably should.

Not every nation maintains a huge stockpile of munitions to carry out aggressive bombing campaigns overseas at a moments notice. Most have sufficient munitions to protect themselves to a reasonable level, but not flatten the world.
If munitions aren't used, then they also require disposal eventually... they aren't "forever". So countries that don't use them regularly aren't likely to stock huge amounts on a "maybe what if" scenario as it's a huge waste...

Apparently the UK used £150 million in munitions alone (BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15483553 ) whereas the Guardian consulted experts who estimated the overall campaign cost the UK £1.75 billion (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/sep/25/libya-conflict-uk-defence-bill)

You have to remember, many nations are small. They have small armed forces and small budgets. We aren't all multi trillion dollar economies ;) The fact some of them were running low on munitions doesn't mean a whole heap about their military being under sized...
 
The problem with running out of munitions would imply that in an actual defensive war, they wouldn't be able to effectively use air support for more than a few weeks.
And I have seen some serious anti-military sentiment in much of Europe, so it doesn't seem to done entirely out of some fiscal responsibility.
 
No it's not like saying that Africa or South America has a duplication in its armed forces. That is something quite different.

What I am saying is that it's a terrible waste having multiple duplicating production facilities and overlapping R&D capabilities supporting many armed forces when you could have just two.

So why do you disagree when I apply that logic to other continents like Africa, South America or even Asia?

If that is the case, why not just completely scrap all naval wharfs and have only two in South Korea. They can build for the entire world, right? Very efficient. Yet it will never happen, for the reason of national security. Having to rely on other country's to provide you parts based on nothing else other than their goodwill alone is a very serious strategic weakness. That is why every country in Europe of a respectable size has their own manufacturing facilities.

If USA and China don't have common production of military tech, I don't see why countries in Europe should.
 
Apparently a lot of folks are making the assumption that there will NEVER be another European war. Definitely an extremely short-sighted stance.

Just remember WW1 was supposed to 'end all wars', and all it takes is one lunatic getting in power to set it off. And with the austerity crap, I could easily see an uber-nationalist winning election in a major country.
 
so why do you disagree when i apply that logic to other continents like africa, south america or even asia?

If that is the case, why not just completely scrap all naval wharfs and have only two in south korea. They can build for the entire world, right? Very efficient. Yet it will never happen, for the reason of national security. Having to rely on other country's to provide you parts based on nothing else other than their goodwill alone is a very serious strategic weakness. That is why every country in europe of a respectable size has their own manufacturing facilities.

If usa and china don't have common production of military tech, i don't see why countries in europe should.

NATO and the EU :)
 
Wow, ok, that was a lot of responses to my post :)
Mowers... I guess what I was saying is maybe we need to rethink our approach to Aircraft roles, utilisation, procurement, and pilots training and numbers... Maybe we should be looking at more efficient use of our technological resources and design and engineering capabilities..
As regards treaties... At the moment economics is bringing up some fracture lines in the EU, and therefore parts of NATO.. so Who knows where we're headed in terms of alliance and treaties??
 
NATO and the EU :)

EU is collapsing economically and Greece being a NATO member bough Russian ships as a deterrent of another NATO member, Turkey. Excuse me if I am sceptical that these organisations will last indefinitely. When they do collapse, because nothing is eternal, the nation with best self sufficient military will have the highest chance to continue it's existence.
 
EU is collapsing economically and Greece being a NATO member bough Russian ships as a deterrent of another NATO member, Turkey. Excuse me if I am sceptical that these organisations will last indefinitely. When they do collapse, because nothing is eternal, the nation with best self sufficient military will have the highest chance to continue it's existence.

Sure, you can be sceptical, there are certainly grounds for it.

But what's the alternative? Even the UK and France can no longer afford to have self sufficient militaries.

As I said, it's only going to get worse and you can either have a controlled re-organization of regional industrial capability or an uncontrolled one in which you are very likely to end up having to buy in from South Korea and Israel before the end of the decade. This is already happening in EW and UAVs, with both France and the UK buying Israeli gear because we have no single dominant player. Now there is no self sufficiency, valuable skills are lost and the cash goes abroad. It's the same with armoured vehicles in the UK.

But where we did get our act together, like Eurofighter, MBDA, Eurocopter, Thales (in Comms and EOIR) we produce regional champions that compete at a global level, in short, true self sufficiency.
 
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EU is collapsing economically and Greece being a NATO member bough Russian ships as a deterrent of another NATO member, Turkey. Excuse me if I am sceptical that these organisations will last indefinitely. When they do collapse, because nothing is eternal, the nation with best self sufficient military will have the highest chance to continue it's existence.

So are you saying that we should each, individually, blow our entire budgets of government upon vast quantities of weapons and ordinance in the "what if" scenario that we suddenly get attacked by a superior power without intervention from other nations? What about actual welfare of the people in everyday living?

Or do I grasp the wrong end of the implication of you post :p

If I haven't, governments have to balance things up. We could have insane amounts of weapons and a broke nation without any welfare. What, exactly, are we protecting when we then subject our own people to awful living conditions and life to "save ourselves in the event we are attacked". There needs to be a balance. Countries spend whatever % of their budget on defence and that enables them to have certain hardware / infrastructure for defence - be it on land, air or sea. Some nations cannot maintain bombing campaigns - but maybe this is simply because they doubt their airforce would be flying after 2-3 weeks of combat against a superior opposition... so it'd be wasted. So why have munitions to level an entire continent if, within days of a war, you would have no real capability to deliver them?
 
So are you saying that we should each, individually, blow our entire budgets of government upon vast quantities of weapons and ordinance in the "what if" scenario that we suddenly get attacked by a superior power without intervention from other nations? What about actual welfare of the people in everyday living?

Or do I grasp the wrong end of the implication of you post :p

We don't need to engage in another arms race, but we don't have to trust European powers blindly and dismantle all national security either. There is always a middle road. Since as you say all countries in Europe have to downsize their armies, the balance will still be there between them.


But what's the alternative? Even the UK and France can no longer afford to have self sufficient militaries.

But where we did get our act together, like Eurofighter, MBDA, Eurocopter, Thales (in Comms and EOIR) we produce regional champions that compete at a global level, in short, true self sufficiency.

If Eurofighter is an example of how Europe makes cooperative projects, then there is a good reason not to do it. Want to see something alternative? Ok, here it goes: Russia, that has GDP which is only half of the German one, less than British and French one and is at the same level of Spain, just created PAK FA, an interceptor fighter that rivals the American Raptor. EU, the block that together has the highest GDP in the world produces something like Eurofighter, a useless plane that costs enormous amount of money to maintain and is only a 4+ generation.

So what is the alternative? Not to let the arms industry become as bloated as it is today. In Russia those companies fight for their survival in a true capitalistic ways coming up with new toys even today, while European companies just merge together, then relax in protectionism and bailouts while few innovating products and when they do, it's at outrageous price which is the reason why countries in Europe can't afford to have a decent military.
 
The problem with running out of munitions would imply that in an actual defensive war, they wouldn't be able to effectively use air support for more than a few weeks.
A ground war in Europe wouldn't last more than a couple of weeks. As big as Europe is, it's still small enough that everything is within everyone's reach.

And I have seen some serious anti-military sentiment in much of Europe, so it doesn't seem to done entirely out of some fiscal responsibility.
Hardly surprising. Unlike the US who by and large have emerged from its wars as a bigger and more powerful nation with ever increasing economic and political clout, European nations have emerged from wars as broken debtors. When WWII ended the US pretty much just kept going. Their economy was firmly in the black and they had become the biggest money lender in the world. In Europe people were faced with two or three decades of reconstruction and broken economies. Certain goods were still being rationed as late as 1952. Those things leave a mark.
 
PAK FA, an interceptor fighter that rivals the American Raptor. EU, the block that together has the highest GDP in the world produces something like Eurofighter, a useless plane that costs enormous amount of money to maintain and is only a 4+ generation.

hmmm, I struggle with the above.

The T-50 isn't in production and costs $100m and is unproven. The AESA radar has yet to be seen and there are only 24 months before production is meant to start which, based on my analysis of Russian production historical patterns, a very big problem. The Russians now buy in their newer EW Suites, which probably means second rate Elbit gear or Eletronica for the jammer, god knows what for the EOIR component? Who has built the mission computer? If this and the databus are anything short of a massive leap forwards then it's not going to be effective. What about the datalink? It's the heart of the platform in a NCW battlefield. And support costs? Have you seen how much SU-30s cost to operate per hour? And what the Algerians had to say about their shoddily put together aircraft? Why are significant countries who are acquiring the SU-30s insisting that elements of EW system be bought in from foreign suppliers?

The Eurofighter is in production and costs $94m for a T3 aircraft (and only 71 for a T1 type) and is combat proven. The future AESA radar, yet to be in production, has at least been demonstrated and has a datalink, comms systems and mission computer that can effectively harness it. The EW Suite is second to none bar the F-22, with high quality RWR, MW and jammer from italy and the UK. The mission computer is on its 3rd? Major incarnation is way ahead of anything that the T-50 can hope to have based on historical precedent. With the numbers of units that have been built support costs are low and falling, indeed, despite your claim, the NAO report shows that the relative support costs for this platform are not high.

The Eurofighter is extremely effective in the environment it was designed for, high intensity air to air. Which is why the Japanese were seriously keen to acquire it (political reasons pushed it out), why the Indians are (probably) set to acquire it and why the Saudis already did. Who is buying the T-50? no one. Who is buying SU-30Mk1+s? Uganda, Venezuela, Vietnam, Algeria (who is currently refusing to accept them) and Indonesia.

Eurofighter Useless ? No.
An extremely expensive investment that had no role in a post cold war environment? Yes.

The Euro fighter story is just not as simple as the popular mass media would like to portray; a largely inaccurate, head line grabbing sort of journalism. Indeed, my short comment here is a very simplistic analysis of a much more complex assessment. In fact if Europe had properly come together, as I have been advocating, then many of the design delays would not have occurred. But ultimately the main drag was driven by the end of the cold war, why rush an aircraft into production that you don't really need at that moment?

The F-22 is just so far ahead of anything else because it was designed a node in a network, not on the basis that it has various 5th Generation attributes; such as thrust vector nozzles, or stealth, or high speed. This revolution in capability design is why Japan and Israel have desperately tried to acquire the aircraft, only to be told that because of it's advanced systems they can't have it; the American's would rather shut down the production line rather than sell the aircraft to their closest allies.

Do I believe the T-50 be a successful aircraft when it, finally, gets into production? Sure, but I really struggle to see how the T-50 will be able to match the F-22 or the AESA equipped Eurofighter short of a revolution in Russian EW and MS capability, which will be a miracle considering the current capability of SPO-15s, Su-30 Comms systems & mission computer. Engine power, aircraft maneuverability and A2A missiles are all Russian strengths that we can expect to see in the T50 but not terribly relevant in the NCW environment, great in 1974 but not in 2014. One could argue it's how the T-50 is employed that will make a difference but, from what I have seen, and I am not a Russian aircraft expert at all, this platform is being designed a platform first and a system second.
 
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We don't need to engage in another arms race, but we don't have to trust European powers blindly and dismantle all national security either. There is always a middle road. Since as you say all countries in Europe have to downsize their armies, the balance will still be there between them.

That's not what I said. I was simply pointing out that if every country in Europe was to up their arms to the point they can effectively fend off a larger more powerful nation alone (e.g. Russia), they will have major major internal problems - they will be broke.

As for Typhoon vs Russia's T50 - there is approximately a 13+ year difference between delivery of their first planes. Yes, the cost for Typhoon appears to be exceptionally high...I would hope we don't have the same issue with the F35, but it appears project management is very poor when it comes to Aviation projects :/ Indeed, it appears to be a chronic failing.