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unmerged(408905)

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Nov 10, 2011
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For those of you that has experience playing as Germany in the 1943 or 1944 scenario im pretty sure that all of you have come to the conclusion that Hungarian, Romanian and Slovakian units are pretty much useless against the red army or the allies(especially on a high difficulty) These units have relatively old or outdated equpment and they are low on both organization and doctrine. I think the Romanian divisions can only achieve 25% operational organization at most. Why is it like this? I know Hungarian units were better equipped, trained, experienced and organized than how they are presented in the game.

Am i the only person that has this opinion?
 
I never checked. I conquer Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and never release Croatia. They are nothing more than a nuisance and incompetant in their use of resources. The AI blows when it comes to producing Axis units. Sorry.
 
I am currenty playing a game as germany with latest LUA update

1940

Romania has 5 leadership

ALl Infantry techs are 1918 or 1936 - Infantry doctrines all still '36

Current research
- Sea lane defence
- artillary cariage and sights
- industrial efficiency
- Destroyer man armament
- basic small fuel tank

They may benefit from more realistic scripting in research.

Mind you - playing on hard or very hard maybe you actually wnat them to be somewhat under powered so you get more of a challenge - it would be more important then that Russia and Great britain researched more plausibly.

SO i don't know if this is by design or just left to will of AI
 
This is because their starting techs and theory/practical in the '44 scenario are nearly/or identical to those of the '36, the only difference usually being 2-3 extra doctrine levels in mass assault, guarilla warfare and peoples army or something similiar. nearly every country has the same problem, a cut & paste fest, no thought required.
 
Playing as Soviet Union in 1941, most of Eastern front is stable, except where the Hungarian army pushed through two river lines. When I play as Germany, no need for Hungarian/RUmanian units if you annex both nations.
 
For those of you that has experience playing as Germany in the 1943 or 1944 scenario im pretty sure that all of you have come to the conclusion that Hungarian, Romanian and Slovakian units are pretty much useless against the red army or the allies(especially on a high difficulty) These units have relatively old or outdated equpment and they are low on both organization and doctrine. I think the Romanian divisions can only achieve 25% operational organization at most. Why is it like this? I know Hungarian units were better equipped, trained, experienced and organized than how they are presented in the game.

Am i the only person that has this opinion?

I'd say the opposite. IRL Hungarian and Rumanian units were probably worse than they are in the game even if they are very bad so I find this representation rather historical. But yes the AI is very bad at playing efficiently. But if you like realism that is... realistic.
 
In RL they fought quite well usually, but their equipment was outdated. Germany produced things like some Me-109 for them, but overall it wasnt realy good. If i remember correctly, Hungaria severely lacked heavy weapons.
 
Yes they are crappola in game, especially late game and worse under the penalties of Hard and Very Hard settings. This someway is historically realistic unfortunately, but then there are a few game tweaks that seem to exacerbate their tendencies...

All of these countries were lacking heavy artillery and modern aircraft after '41 which a supply of a few ME-109s was no where near addressing particularly late war and then their obsolete tanks was another plain altogether.

OTOH just how bad their equipment was is a bit more hit and miss, they weren't that bad off with general basic equipment mostly, but often they simply lacked enough of a ratio of or were completely without the key and important categories.

All Axis Balkan countries started with the WWI basics with pistols, grenades, bayonets and rifles, light (low velocity 75mm type) field guns and were all increasing their light field howitzers - mostly Skoda 100mm, a modest few 150mm heavies and very few 200mm+ really heavy pieces too, but at lower ratios for their armies the higher you go of the heavier higher calibers and of longer barrels for range, if they had them. Those Skoda 100mm were actually pretty good, similar to German leFH 105mm in range (until mid-war) and weight of shell and had the barrel length of the US 105mm howitzer throughout WWII, but even with that they didn't have enough of them and their place was still being filled by too many WWI 75mm light field guns. The Romanians only had half the number of these in their Divisions compared to a German, 16 to 36 and way fewer than American, 16 to 54!

Obviously in the air and for their armour they all were hopelessly out dated or under equipped with much modern aircraft and no real tanks from 1941 after the older Soviet mass stock had been eliminated and became replaced steadily from '42 onwards increasingly with many more much better varieties.

All these countries addressed their short comings in terms of modern automatic weapons during the war, Hungary copied an excellent Austrian SMG mid war while Romania received a few Italian Baretta M-38s, the best SMG of the '30s and then developed their own similar to an MP-40 to make enough numbers. Most of these countries used the Czech ZV26/30 light machine-gun that the Bren gun was a near exact copy of, while the Hungarians also used a copy of the Austrian L30 which the MG-34 was based upon. Again for their HMG most employed the Czech ZV-37 which was a very good 'medium weight' modern HMG similar to the MG-34 on a tripod mount and fired the very same round although some countries still had to employ their WWI Schwarlose HMGs, but these were equal to the Maxims the Russians mostly used opposite them.

One area they all were weak in was heavy anti-tank guns and remained lacking in to the end of the war except Romania, interestingly most were reasonable provided with light anti-tank guns and rifles for early Barbarossa but that didn't help much against T-34s or KVs.

The biggest killer in game is these countries Officer Ratio - that approximately 25% limit of effectiveness of Romanian Divisions in the late war scenarios is because of the terribly low Officer Ratio and another game issue is the problem with the AI not promoting/demoting Generals and that it doesn't change its hierarchy to improve things and maximize the benefits of HQs and traits. So despite how well or not PI has these countries armies represented or not, especially over time since the AI fails to properly pursue a concentrated research program, there are a lot of game features that the AI can't handle either to make these minors worthwhile accepting as Germany to have them fight.
 
Kinda unfair to bash Romanian/Hungarian efforts. They did quite well given the context of their deployment. Saulius outlined their weaponry, but they were deployed in Southern sector, where there were really strong Soviet forces. Commies pretty much concentrated their best troops and commanders (Kirponos and co) in Ukraine. + Black Sea fleet was real active and soviets were hell bent to launch counterattacks, amphibious landings etc.
 
"Did quite well"? At almost every major occasion Hungarian and Romanian formations failed. Odessa, Crimea, Stalingrad, 1944...

The Hungarian and Romanian units are so weak because they WERE so weak IRL.
 
"Did quite well"? At almost every major occasion Hungarian and Romanian formations failed. Odessa, Crimea, Stalingrad, 1944...

The Hungarian and Romanian units are so weak because they WERE so weak IRL.
They were weak but not that weak. The Soviet did manage to surround Stalingrad thanks because the Romanian troops had to few anti tank guns thats why they lost.
 
For those of you that has experience playing as Germany in the 1943 or 1944 scenario im pretty sure that all of you have come to the conclusion that Hungarian, Romanian and Slovakian units are pretty much useless against the red army or the allies(especially on a high difficulty) These units have relatively old or outdated equpment and they are low on both organization and doctrine. I think the Romanian divisions can only achieve 25% operational organization at most. Why is it like this? I know Hungarian units were better equipped, trained, experienced and organized than how they are presented in the game.

Am i the only person that has this opinion?

I am not unhappy with this. It represents reality quite well. There are things you can do to help them,
like sharing infantry technologies with them. That way they will produce much better units.
 
The AI scripts should be edited for Eastern European minors so that they keep up to date in Infantry weaponry at least.
 
According to some German commanders in the summer of 1944 the 2. Romanian Armoured Division was in fact better equipped than it's German counterparts.
Below is a list of the total German tanksales to it's Eastern allies from 1940 to 1944. From this list it's clear the Hungarians received enough modern German AFV to field at least 1 fully equipped Panzerdivision, while the Romanians received enough vehicles to field an entire corps of 3 well equiped divisions.

2456079220104696093S600x600Q85.jpg


The inability of Germany's allies to check the Red army when it fought it's way through the Balkans was not so much a result of poor equipment alone, as of poor morale and leadership.

source: Armour camouflage and markings 1941-1945, Steven J. Zaloga and James Grandsen
 
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I am currenty playing a game as germany with latest LUA update

1940

Romania has 5 leadership

ALl Infantry techs are 1918 or 1936 - Infantry doctrines all still '36

Current research
- Sea lane defence
- artillary cariage and sights
- industrial efficiency
- Destroyer man armament
- basic small fuel tank

They may benefit from more realistic scripting in research.

Mind you - playing on hard or very hard maybe you actually wnat them to be somewhat under powered so you get more of a challenge - it would be more important then that Russia and Great britain researched more plausibly.

SO i don't know if this is by design or just left to will of AI

Well, i find it unrealistic that 1 russian division is worth 5 romanian divisions on full strength, supplied and organized at 25%
 
They were weak but not that weak. The Soviet did manage to surround Stalingrad thanks because the Romanian troops had to few anti tank guns thats why they lost.

That is a myth, shifting blame from incompetent German leadership and intelligence failures to axis allies. It was German commanders who ignored warnings, failed to reduce bridgeheads and paid dearly. Anything short of well equipped/rested German divisions and armored reserves would have failed to contain Uranus.
 
I'd say the opposite. IRL Hungarian and Rumanian units were probably worse than they are in the game even if they are very bad so I find this representation rather historical. But yes the AI is very bad at playing efficiently. But if you like realism that is... realistic.

Romanian army is more historical accurate in the game than the Hungarian, although in 1944 the romanians used more German equipment than their own weapons. The romanian tank divisions had more tanks than the germans, and were far better supplied than the German army in Romania.
The Hungarian army on the other side was just as well armed as their German allies, during late 1943 and onto march of 1944. The Hungarians recieved several of the best weapons in the German arsenal. This included: Panther tanks, Panzer IV H, Small number of tigers, Several ME109G and Focke-Wulf190. Also a few JU87G. They had same infantry standard weapons as the Germans and the organization was relatively good.
 
In RL they fought quite well usually, but their equipment was outdated. Germany produced things like some Me-109 for them, but overall it wasnt realy good. If i remember correctly, Hungaria severely lacked heavy weapons.

Romanian army is more historical accurate in the game than the Hungarian, although in 1944 the romanians used more German equipment than their own weapons. The romanian tank divisions had more tanks than the germans, and were far better supplied than the German army in Romania.
The Hungarian army on the other side was just as well armed as their German allies, during late 1943 and onto march of 1944. The Hungarians recieved several of the best weapons in the German arsenal. This included: Panther tanks, Panzer IV H, Small number of tigers, Several ME109G and Focke-Wulf190. Also a few JU87G. They had same infantry standard weapons as the Germans and the organization was relatively good.
 
For those of you that has experience playing as Germany in the 1943 or 1944 scenario im pretty sure that all of you have come to the conclusion that Hungarian, Romanian and Slovakian units are pretty much useless against the red army or the allies(especially on a high difficulty) These units have relatively old or outdated equpment and they are low on both organization and doctrine. I think the Romanian divisions can only achieve 25% operational organization at most. Why is it like this? I know Hungarian units were better equipped, trained, experienced and organized than how they are presented in the game.

Am i the only person that has this opinion?

If you play vanilla SF or the FTM then Hungary ,Romania and Slovakia chronically suffer from the lack of officers due to expeditionary forces rules changes since the game creation.

My 1944 MOD deals with this issue. However, you should not expect those countries to do much, after all the Soviets went through Romanians, Hungarian and Italian defences in the Stalingrad operation as if they were not there.
 
Kinda unfair to bash Romanian/Hungarian efforts. They did quite well given the context of their deployment. Saulius outlined their weaponry, but they were deployed in Southern sector, where there were really strong Soviet forces. Commies pretty much concentrated their best troops and commanders (Kirponos and co) in Ukraine. + Black Sea fleet was real active and soviets were hell bent to launch counterattacks, amphibious landings etc.

The crimean offensive in 1941-42 was carried out by the romanians, with the Germans right behind them. Also during the battles in transylvania the Hungarian and Romanian forces caused heavy casualties on the Red Army. Historically they were alot better than how they are presented in the game, At least the Hungarians which was almost as good as the German.