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Japan: How long does it take you take China? And how do you deal with rebels?

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First Lieutenant
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Aug 15, 2011
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Just curious: how long should it take me to take China? I know, there are no "hard" answers, but give me a soft one, then. I've been retreating into Korea and allowing the Chinese to retake Manchuko, and then retaking it. I really like this game play - it tends to prolong the war and really give the war in China a wholesale feel. And I get all Manchuko's resources!

The thing is, it's taking me until early to mid- 1939 to take all of get China to fall. That's basically over a year of fighting, which may not seem like a long time, but it's 1939 and I feel as if time is flying by!

Also, I'm using 8 infantry corps (divided into 2 Hendan or armies), supported by two corps of Marines and two corps of mountain troops - for twelve corps total.

Granted, I'm relatively new to the game and I've made some rather boneheaded mistakes - like not advancing across China in a straight, efficient line, allowing the Chinese to get troops behind my line, etc. But this still feels like a huge amount of time for this many corps.

Next, how do you deal with rebels. I've tried two different methods, neither of which work well. I've tried garrison forces, but you place them at the border and the rebels appear inland. I've also tried cavalry, with is better, but as soon as pull my units off the border, I get invaded.

Suggestions, anyone? Thanks.
 
I used to be able to take all of China (not Sinkiang or Tibet, but all the rest) usually by the end of 1938, the very end. This is what i would do;

1) Id build like another 30 or so (i forget exactly) Infx3 Artx1 divisions, and id fill in the existing units with artillery. I would also build like 30 transports, maybe 40. This would be my builds. I would attack from Manchuria, these units would continue through Shanxi, Comm, China, Xiben Ma and head towards Yunnan. I would launch 3-4 amphib ops with 10 divisions each, attacking the 2 ports and near the airbase down by Taiwan. All these units would steam towards Yunnan and then circle down to Guangxi.

That is how you do it, dont just go straight through Manchuria. If you watch the AI as Japan they usually are only successful when they launch successful amphib ops, otherwise they tend to get bogged down in Manchuria.

Ive done it this way several times, usually works pretty well. In the End, most if not all of your troops are in the South and West, where you want them to be...

Rebels? I use Militia and Cavalry mostly and let the AI handle the ops...
 
21oliver pretty much has Japan's strategy nailed. The only thing I can add is that you should stagger your invasions. Let there be 2-3 weeks in between landings. That will maximize AI confusion and give you the best results, since the AI is seriously handicapped when it has to deal with more than 1 front.
 
I wouldn't worry too much about how long it takes. As long as the majority of China is secured before you either attack the USA or attack the Allies, you should be fine. In fact, doing it too quickly under FTM means that your laws revert back to peacetime configuration... right when it might be nice to start several CV and CAG projects. :)

On the plus side, if you can annex most of the warlords by 1938/39, that does start the clock on nationalism. If you intend to go the distance with the USA and/or the Allies, having lower revolt risk tied to nationalism in China would be nice.

I think the fastest I've pulled it off is 39, but I'm not very good at invading China. My best strategy is one that involves sacrificing Manchukuo so I can pocket and destroy the combined armies of China in Manchuria (along the Yalu river) via amphibious assaults while they try in vain to push into Korea. But while that strategy is very successful, it is also time intensive. The low infrastructure in Manchuria means it takes forever to clean up the damn pocket, even when they are out of supply.
 
I find when i attack as i stated above it works well. I connect and take all the coastal units, encircle from the north and drive them southwest, which is where i want my units anyway. Its like a 3/4 circle slowly pushing them southwest, i never end up with many pockets.
 
21oliver said:
I used to be able to take all of China (not Sinkiang or Tibet, but all the rest) usually by the end of 1938, the very end.

. . .

Rebels? I use Militia and Cavalry mostly and let the AI handle the ops...
Click to expand...

This last time, it took me until April 1939. It felt like forever - and that was just to conquer Nationalist China and puppet Xibei San Ma. Do you take Mongolia, Sinkiang, Yunan, and the Clique, too? In that time frame? Wow.

How do give AI control over a single corps or unit?

TheBromgrev said:
The only thing I can add is that you should stagger your invasions. Let there be 2-3 weeks in between landings. That will maximize AI confusion and give you the best results, since the AI is seriously handicapped when it has to deal with more than 1 front.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I've been trying: Let China take Manchuko (see Secret Master's tactic below), then retake it. My plan basically called for waiting until Manchuko fell and until the three Chinas had consolidated their forces along the Korean border. Once they begin attacking me in earnest, I defend while launching a second envelopment attack from the port at Dagu. I land a corps for Marines, followed by four corps of infantry. They basically cut across Shanxi and trap the joint army in Manchuko. Then I close the vise.

Oddly enough, what happened in my current game is that I trapped the entire Joint Chinese army in Manchuko. When Manchuko fell, all the units - all three nations units - disappeared. All that was left were a few Nationalist Chinese Headquarters units, which I took out quickly.

Woohoo, I thought, I just destroyed China!

Think again. A couple of days later, a HUGE stack of Communist Chinese units appears on their capital. Suddenly, an entire army of Nationalist Chinese appeared coming up from the south. Sigh. By now, my "line" was slanting from Southwest to Northeast. I made my next two landings at Quindao and Shanghai at four week intervals, but by then my line had taken on this strange S shape that wasted my position and stretched my units to maximum thinness. I also let units from the Xibei San Ma army get behind mine (it's annoying how I cannot enter a region because the infrastructure is too low, but then can cross it easily) and out flank me.

Not an efficient performance at all.

Secret Master said:
I wouldn't worry too much about how long it takes. As long as the majority of China is secured before you either attack the USA or attack the Allies, you should be fine. In fact, doing it too quickly under FTM means that your laws revert back to peacetime configuration... right when it might be nice to start several CV and CAG projects. :)

On the plus side, if you can annex most of the warlords by 1938/39, that does start the clock on nationalism. If you intend to go the distance with the USA and/or the Allies, having lower revolt risk tied to nationalism in China would be nice.

I think the fastest I've pulled it off is 39, but I'm not very good at invading China. My best strategy is one that involves sacrificing Manchukuo so I can pocket and destroy the combined armies of China in Manchuria (along the Yalu river) via amphibious assaults while they try in vain to push into Korea. But while that strategy is very successful, it is also time intensive. The low infrastructure in Manchuria means it takes forever to clean up the damn pocket, even when they are out of supply.
Click to expand...

Apparently, I suck at fighting in China, too. But there's a thought I hadn't considered: delaying the war for my own purposes.

You're spot on about the end of the war. As soon as I took China, I lost all the benefits of war, and my consumer goods shot through the roof. I should have taken more time. Maybe I could declare war on the Clique . . . :p

I have to say: I enjoy your "sacrifice Manchuko" strategy. When it is finally complete, my IC goes through the roof (I think I have a wartime IC of like 200+ on Normal without building any IC) and so does my Leadership. I'm currently pulling in 26 research projects at once, which allows me for some my oddities - like researching all of particular tech group (like all four carrier techs).

One thing I found strange: I had ten active spies working in Nationalist China with the goal of lowering National Unity. It didn't do diddly. I don't think it made NC any easier to take at all. I'm beginning to think that Intelligence is once screen I can avoid for how effective it is (well, after I get the 10 spies in my own country).

Another thing I can't figure out is how to "influence" another country, like the USA. I keep reading that people can influence the USA in their nations direction, but I've never found a button or screen that allows me to raise my "influence" with any other country.
 
Secret Master said:
I wouldn't worry too much about how long it takes. As long as the majority of China is secured before you either attack the USA or attack the Allies, you should be fine. In fact, doing it too quickly under FTM means that your laws revert back to peacetime configuration... right when it might be nice to start several CV and CAG projects. :)

On the plus side, if you can annex most of the warlords by 1938/39, that does start the clock on nationalism. If you intend to go the distance with the USA and/or the Allies, having lower revolt risk tied to nationalism in China would be nice.

I think the fastest I've pulled it off is 39, but I'm not very good at invading China. My best strategy is one that involves sacrificing Manchukuo so I can pocket and destroy the combined armies of China in Manchuria (along the Yalu river) via amphibious assaults while they try in vain to push into Korea. But while that strategy is very successful, it is also time intensive. The low infrastructure in Manchuria means it takes forever to clean up the damn pocket, even when they are out of supply.
Click to expand...

Declare war on Tibet and just do nothing. You can annex all the chinese minors.
 
Really? Usually it takes me until the end of 37, maybe early 38 to beat them. Then start prolonging the war by DOW's on the chinese minors, maybe kickstarting the war by attacking Singapore, hell, conquering NZ and Aus to keep laws good
 
I usually don't defeat china until 1941. Why should I?

Japan only has things to gain from being at war with China.

- Better laws
- More experienced land forces
- More advanced land doctrines thanks to better combat experience
- More experienced airforce (+80% efficiency from experience on bombers and CAGs yes please!)
- More advanced air doctrines thanks to aircombat experience.

I try to limit the peacetime to 1-2 months for troops to regroup and be ready for the invasions of Malaya/Pearl Harbour.
 
One thing I found strange: I had ten active spies working in Nationalist China with the goal of lowering National Unity. It didn't do diddly. I don't think it made NC any easier to take at all. I'm beginning to think that Intelligence is once screen I can avoid for how effective it is (well, after I get the 10 spies in my own country).
Click to expand...

In 3.05 FtM:
spy_lower_national_unity = national_unity = -0.02
spy_raise_national_unity = national_unity = 0.03

So it is a very small value... 0,2 per month x12 = 2,4 per year...
Better option is to continual strategic bombings or convoy raiding(if they have port and convoy:D)


Another thing I can't figure out is how to "influence" another country, like the USA. I keep reading that people can influence the USA in their nations direction, but I've never found a button or screen that allows me to raise my "influence" with any other country.
Click to expand...

Use diplomacy screen, select USa an use influence button. This will drain 2 LS. Good option too is to use spies in USA with mission support our party -> you can see influence growth too your direction is rising even more.
 
I think it's a bit gamey to stay in the war for many many years. I usually reorganize and upgrade garrisons to infantry well before the war and after Shanxi is dealt with, I land on 3 places at the same time. It confuses the AI and northern front will break real fast and you can seize Communist china quickly and sweep down towards the rivers.

After all chinese warlords are down, I usually puppet australia and NZ quickly so I dont need to think about them stealing some land from my backyard.
 
In my last 2 games as Japan (playing on Hard) I decided to help my front coverage by adding 2 INF brigades to each corps/army HQ that was going to fight. It worked out well against the Chinese.

I waited till the '37 Marco Polo event to fire to declare war and built up 3xINF+1 ART divisions and a few 3xMTN divisions (and reinforced as many of the other INF divisions with ART as possible) as I could. I had about 6 2/3 CAV divisions and 2 MOT+ 2 TD divisions as well. I attacked out of Manchuria and invaded Shanghai with 10 divisions and Oingdai (spelling) with another 5. I annexed Shanxai then after some very hard fighting took out Communist China. After that I just drove South & SW with my units till Nat China surrendered. I just kept pushing, surrounding units when I could, so they never got a good defensive line set up in most places. I did have some supply issues in the SE where the terrain is mountainous and there are no ports. I had a few ports in the queue but by the time I had them built the first war was over.

Both times it took less than 6 months to accomplish. I then reorganized my army to face the G. Clique and took them out in a few months. I left Yunnan alone.

During the wars I was hands on with the units so I could try and promote my LW generals as much as possible. After the wars there I initially left most of the army there, just spread them out, as I built up some Gar+2 POL divisions. As I got enough spread out I removed the INF divisions to mainland Japan and left the 2xCAV divisions to handle any rebels.

I have also in the past let the war go on till '39 to get the better production bonuses but doing that has annoyed my sensibilities so I stopped after a few games.
 
NatChi!


Please note: all this is for 3.05 and earlier.



A) As long as you aren't either stalemated or in danger of losing, don't worry about the war "dragging on". The better laws are reason enough.

B) you have 2 corps of MTN and 2 of Marine? Granted, it's not like having those is *bad*, but you could probably do with 1 corps (or less) of each during the chinese push, using the saved IC for either more INF, or... well, anything else.

C) I deal with rebels by "starting my ARM builds". Since I know as JAP I will be either fighting USA, SOV, or GER (heh) at some point, I know I will need tanks of some variety. I start small builds of 1xLARM 1xENG which I scatter around captured areas (gotta build that practical somehow). Also, I put 1xMIL on "centralized" provinces (I.E. right in the middle of major resource areas) for good measure.



D) The "Manchukuo doctrine". NOTE: I am unsure how well this will work in 3.06

I've done the "let china take Manchukuo and retake it" strat before, but then I found a new strat: take Shanxi and CommChi to get the creation of Mengkukuo (which, despite being your puppet, is NOT at war with China by default), then fall back and let China take back Shanxi and move into Manchukuo... then take NATIONALIST CHINA. The "border" between Shanxi and Menchukuo, with Mengkukuo in play, is only 3 provinces wide, and can be held by 2 corps (or even just 1, if the HQ unit itself carries combat troops). Land at Shanxi's port, blockade the NatChi forces in "Manch", then just have a few corps clean up the rest of NatChi. When they surrender, their holdings in Manch will revert automatically. And of course, DoW Sinkiang before this finishes up, lest you lose the sweet wartime laws :).
 
Just to give you an idea, I am currently playing Nat China in the new Beta patch 3.06 (alot of changes)...Its Early Feb 1938 and i have taken; Shanxi, Comm China, Yunnan, Guangxi Clique, Xibei San Ma, Tibet and Sinkiang. I took out Shanxi prior to July 1 1937 so no Marco Polo firing.

I set up like this - along the Yunnan and Guangxi borders, i went into Yunnan first, Guangxi a month later. Once i took them i set up a long line from Xibei San Ma, Comm China and Shanxi. I knew that once I DOW on Shanxi the others would join in, so i was ready. I took out Xibei, then Shanxi, encircled Comm China then went west to take on Sinkiang who had invaded (they guarenteed not only Shanxi, but my independence???). I DOW on Tibet and took them out fast and then Sinkiang.

Thats where i stand. Rem this is the new patch, still buggy. Not sure what will happen with Japan.
 
Thanks for the information. This has been very helpful. I'm going to restart my campaign for the umpteenth time and this time keep my war continuous.

21oliver said:
Rebels? I use Militia and Cavalry mostly and let the AI handle the ops...
Click to expand...

I think my earlier question got lost in the discussion. :) Does anyone know how to do this? I generally use 2xGarrison as "Border" of "Garrison" units, but I'm manually controlling all my units. I wasn't aware you could select could select a particular army or corps and have the AI control it.

Thanks.

themousemaster said:
B) you have 2 corps of MTN and 2 of Marine? Granted, it's not like having those is *bad*, but you could probably do with 1 corps (or less) of each during the chinese push, using the saved IC for either more INF, or... well, anything else.
Click to expand...

Actually, they're extremely effective if you research the Special Forces tech. I usually turn all four loose in China and they end up with 30+ unit experience (I'm building specialist units) and, using any leader with a commando trait as a Marine commander, they usually end up with two or three stars by the end of the conflict.

After that, I just use them to grab enemy ports, key positions, etc. I haven't really used a lot of paratroops, but I'm about to start a new game to try them.
 
Maestor said:
Declare war on Tibet and just do nothing. You can annex all the chinese minors.
Click to expand...

I keep forgetting that Tibet is not protected by anyone. Good call.


As for special forces, there are plenty of rivers and mountains in China and the warlords that would be useful for special forces. They are kind of an officer hog to build, but MAR and MTN never run out of things to do in Asia/Pacific theater. Remember that MAR also works well in jungle and across rivers, while MTN works well in hills, mountains, and arctic provinces (for anyone contemplating an invasion of the Soviets).
 
REMcPhail said:
Actually, they're extremely effective if you research the Special Forces tech. I usually turn all four loose in China and they end up with 30+ unit experience (I'm building specialist units) and, using any leader with a commando trait as a Marine commander, they usually end up with two or three stars by the end of the conflict.

After that, I just use them to grab enemy ports, key positions, etc. I haven't really used a lot of paratroops, but I'm about to start a new game to try them.
Click to expand...



What I meant by them "not being bad" is that their "special status" comes at the cost of normal operations.

You used them in China, and they all did well. what I'm saying is, if you had used 4 corps of INF instead, the INF would have done just as well, and the IC/MP you saved could have been used for even more INF (or something else).

the Marines especially. MTN I can see as being good for a mountainous push (china certainly has a couple of those), but the Marines are only more useful than INF when attacking ports (amphibiously) or rivers. Which, if you are assaulting the interior of China, isn't exactly what they face.



Of course, if you were *very* careful with your micromanagement, and made usre the MTNs only fought in Mountain/hill areas and the marines only breached rivers/etc., then they would be worth the cost. I just didn't get that vibe by the phrasing of "turning all four loose"



And it's not like you won't use the MARs eventually anyway, of course. I just tend to advise not to add them to your "starting invasion" force.

Obviously, if it works for you, don't stop just cause I say so ;p
 
Well, I've done stranger things. :) And it's not like I'm building hundreds of them. At four corps of 2 MAR (4 DIV of 4 MAR = 16 DIV) and 2 MTN (2 DIV of 4 MTN + 3 DIV of 3 CAV). Compare this the over 32 divisions (8 Corps) of regular infantry 3xINF + 1xART I build and it doesn't seem extreme.
 
Been playing around with Japan in 3.06 and I am getting the impression that tactics and outcomes in Asia are going to change somewhat. The new map changes everything and all 7 chinese factions WILL declare war on you immediately now as soon as Marco Polo fires. Nat China AI appears to have no problem getting up to date on tech and up to and over 100% in officers either now. Not sure if 3.06 is going to fix the Marco Polo event so that Japan still attacks if Shanxi is conquered though. Once the diplomacy issues are fixed in the new beta release, I think Asia is going to be a lot of fun to play.
 
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