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But yeah, 1066 is too long from the days of the Western Empire; when the Eastern Romans reconquered Italy barely fifty years after Rome fell, the reinstatement of imperial bureaucracy led to revolts (mostly because taxes went up, compared to the barbarian rule).

Err, not quite. The Ostrogothic kingdom maintained Roman administrators because the barbarians didn't know how to rule, nor did they care. The Ostrogothic kingdom was not very dissimilar to the final years of the Western Empire, except instead of an Emperor ruling in Italia, they had a barbarian king.

The Gothic Wars were a failure not because people revolted, but because both cities and countryside were devastated and the Roman administrative apparatus was broken for good in the process. Remember that local elites were accustomed to rule as a matter of course: that's just how society was structured. Warfare broke that system, and it was never to resume. Justinian, far from restoring the Empire, dealt the mortal blow to the ancient social structures.
 
<snip some interesting ideas presented on the previous page>

You mean like an Emperor trait (e.g. HRE/Germany) and an Imperial title (e.g. Tsar of the Rus)... and... some Caliphate Controller/unique Muslim mechanism?

Sounds good to me.

(Though as an aside, the religious aspect of non-Catholic clergy could do with some work.)
 
You should have the option for your title to become "[Empire/Kingdom/Duchy] of [Current Location Name]". I don't want to see the biggest empire always have to turn into Byzantium. If a nation can challenge Byzantium as Emperor, they should be allowed to.
 
How about "High King" or "King of Kings" as a possible 4th tier title"?
In Britain, a (Celtic or Anglosaxon) ruler who rules the entire island could attempt to declare himself "High King of Britain".
Or in Persia, a native ruler could attempt to revive the empire of Cyrus the Great and become Shahanshah ("King of Kings")- although this may cause religious unrest.
 
If there would be a 4th tier, it would mean that an empire would always consist of a number of vassal kings. I don't think that was historically the case. It would make more sense to have the emperor title as a boosted 3rd tier title, with some advantages over kingship such as increased prestige.

Also, if barons constitue a tier in the hierarchy of CK2, kings will be already 4th tier :)
 
How about "High King" or "King of Kings" as a possible 4th tier title"?
In Britain, a (Celtic or Anglosaxon) ruler who rules the entire island could attempt to declare himself "High King of Britain".
Or in Persia, a native ruler could attempt to revive the empire of Cyrus the Great and become Shahanshah ("King of Kings")- although this may cause religious unrest.

Celts, Britons, Sassanids...? CK starts at 1066 and will be focused on Christendom.
 
If there would be a 4th tier, it would mean that an empire would always consist of a number of vassal kings. I don't think that was historically the case. It would make more sense to have the emperor title as a boosted 3rd tier title, with some advantages over kingship such as increased prestige.

Also, if barons constitue a tier in the hierarchy of CK2, kings will be already 4th tier :)

+1

There are basically two issues:

1) Should there be a fourth tier?

2) What should being an emperor entail (ie should it just be a trait or should it give access to a fourth tier)?

I've already voiced my opinion on the second of these issues.

Assuming the basic mechanics of vassalage and the size of the map remain similar in CK2, I increasingly dislike the idea of a fourth tier on a mechanical basis as it gives the holders of titles on that tier MUCH more potential power. The amount of time spent dealing with rebellion in CK1 is directly proportional to the number of vassals you have. For the sake of argument and simplicity say a duke can cope with having 10 counts as vassals before rebellion becomes endemic. Likewise, say a king can cope with having 10 dukes as vassals. The king potentially wields power that is an order of magnitude greater than that of the duke. Introducing an "Emperor" (or whatever) tier gives a figure that is potentially 10 times as powerful as a king. At the same time, personal demense would be doubled for an Emperor compared to a king giving an emperor another huge advantage. Both of these would make it much easier to control a massive territory and face little opposition from those outside your empire. A massive internal revolt could still cause problems, but then you should be more powerful than your vassals, and have loyal vassals to call on.

In CK1 you can build massive and relatively stable empires by granting multiple duke titles to your vassals. However, the power of these archdukes, and therefore the power you could draw from them as king, was limited by their demense and how many vassals they could cope with. You could also get occasional problems when an archduke was inherited by a foriegn king and you lost a massive block of land.

I therefore dislike the idea of a fourth tier as it would allow an already powerful king to become a figure that couldn't be touched by anyone. If the map were to become much more detailed (say a tripling of provinces) then I could see the benefit of a fourth tier. Likewise, there may be a use for one if the system of vassalage is overhauled. At present I can only see one viable use for it: the Mongols (as a few people have already suggested).

By giving the Great Khan the fourth tier then he has the potential to grab and hold a lot of land. BUT the amount of land that he can personally control would remain finite. This is in stark contrast to the unending amount of land he can hold under the present "if you're a mongol, then you can personally own the whole map". After a period of time or the deaths of a certain number of Khans then this privilege could be removed leaving a number of smaller Khanates.
 
Wales (the Britons) and the Anglosaxons are both Catholic.

So were the Visigoths. You can't base a game that covers the XI-XVth Centuries period in IX-Xth Centuries basis, and more precisely, you can't expand the Celtic tradition of a "high king" or the Persian "King of Kings" into Europe, which had NOTHING TO DO with eny of them.

***

And about the Fourth Tier, I think it's neither useful, nor necessary.
 
If there would be a 4th tier, it would mean that an empire would always consist of a number of vassal kings.

Who says that Emperor must have vassal Kings just because he is of a higher tier? Emperor would get certain advantages and a fancy title, but it can't be too hard to turn off the ability of having vassal Kings.
 
Who says that Emperor must have vassal Kings just because he is of a higher tier? Emperor would get certain advantages and a fancy title, but it can't be too hard to turn off the ability of having vassal Kings.

Because it's how the tiers system work(ed in ck1). An upper tier allow to vassalize lower tiers, it's the purpose of having different levels of titles.

Now there can be emperors having special advantages compared to other realm rulers (don't even see what advantages it should give... more prestige ? I don't support at all having an emperor by nature more prestigious than say a king of France having as many vassals ; bigger personnal demesne allowed ? if we consider the size of the holy roman emperors demesnes it's completely illogical) , but (except to confuse people who will believe naturally believe tiers 5 emperors can vassalize tiers 4 kings, as a tiers 3 duke can vassalize a tiers 2 count who can have tiers 1 barons as vassals) why call these kings with fantasist special advantages another "tier" ?

The way it was done in ck-dv (or a patch or a mod, don't remember), with "emperor" being a trait giving some bonus makes far more sense if they can just vassalize dukes.

Anyway... In my opinion the vassalization/tiers system will get a far deeper rework as a lot of its results were completely unhistorical, especially when a land was inherited by someone of another realm, and it will probably include some form cross/partial/light vassalization (vassalization of titles not characters) and so some kind of vassalization inside the same ck1 tiers (ie : king of England pledging to France for his duchy of Aquitaine only ; kingdom of Scotland sometimes pledging to England, etc...). Then the question of emperors vassalizing kings or not won't have to be asked, stronger kings/emperors or kings/emperors having historical liege rights over a land will just be able to get hommage from weaker kings/emperors, or kings/emperors having inherited lands in their realms (naturally this kind of vassals should have far more freedom than vassals had in ck1).
 
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Who says that Emperor must have vassal Kings just because he is of a higher tier? Emperor would get certain advantages and a fancy title, but it can't be too hard to turn off the ability of having vassal Kings.

Well, such an emperor would be IMO a "king+", a 3rd tier title with some additional benefits. In CK, titles of a higher tier would have titles with a lower tier as vassals, so a 4th tier emperor would have 3rd tier vassals, i.e. kings.

I agree with wobbit that having a 4rd tier could be highly exploitative.

Another suggestion for an emperor mechanism would be that a person holding multiple kingships would be automatically emperor or high king. Perhaps likewise a duke with multiple duchies could be a grand duke? High kings and grand dukes would still remain on the same tier as kings and dukes, but could get some additional prestige or somesuch.
 
Well, such an emperor would be IMO a "king+", a 3rd tier title with some additional benefits. In CK, titles of a higher tier would have titles with a lower tier as vassals, so a 4th tier emperor would have 3rd tier vassals, i.e. kings.

I agree with wobbit that having a 4rd tier could be highly exploitative.

Another suggestion for an emperor mechanism would be that a person holding multiple kingships would be automatically emperor or high king. Perhaps likewise a duke with multiple duchies could be a grand duke? High kings and grand dukes would still remain on the same tier as kings and dukes, but could get some additional prestige or somesuch.

Good idea.
 
@Antoine I think the main benefit of titles such as emperor would be the prestige. This wouldn't by any means guarantee that the emperor was the most prestigious figure in the game, I think the king of France is probably the best example of a king who was more prestigious than the Emperor at various points. But it would certainly give him a bonus: If the king of France had also been HRE then would he have been more prestigious? I'd like to see a series of events/decisions tied to being emperor as well, some beneficial (say, being asked to intervene in the selection of a king or pope) and some detrimental (investiture contest). I absolutely agree that the whole tier system could urgently use an overhaul. Here's hoping.
 
So were the Visigoths. You can't base a game that covers the XI-XVth Centuries period in IX-Xth Centuries basis, and more precisely, you can't expand the Celtic tradition of a "high king" or the Persian "King of Kings" into Europe, which had NOTHING TO DO with eny of them.

***

And about the Fourth Tier, I think it's neither useful, nor necessary.

AFAIK the Roman (Byzantine) ruler was Basileus Basileion; "King of Kings".