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BeondTheGrave

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Mar 11, 2011
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What does discipline do in combat? Im playing D&T as Italy and i have over 140% discipline, and just lost a war with Austria, who has just over 130%. They did posses some Eastern Cavalry (which outclassed my Latin Knights :/) but we are equal in infantry. So what does this stat do in the game, and what is more important, Discipline or Morale?
 
Discipline is, according to the EU3 wiki, a damage modifier. Your number of 140% means you deal 40% more damage. Morale represents how long your units will remain in a battle, which ultimately decides it. So if the Austrians have greater morale, and you cannot break them immediately, then they will tend to win the battle.

So which is more important? I would say morale, although some military ideas give a great boost in discipline. Also, if Austria's calvary outclasses you in shock, then that is something else to consider.
 
I think its all shock, they are using mostly cavalry formations which just decimate my morale right at the start of the battle. If I dont immediately reinforce that formation then it gets murdered :\
 
Took some provinces from Hungary? If the latter still has cores, it can recruit those units. The downside is that they don't get upgraded when you select a new unit time.

On the other hand, Austria does not upgrade it's cavalry to a newer type until the 1700s...
 
discipline is damage modifier, morale is how long your troops are going to fight.

It also reduces the amount of casualties you take.

What does discipline do in combat? Im playing D&T as Italy and i have over 140% discipline, and just lost a war with Austria, who has just over 130%. They did posses some Eastern Cavalry (which outclassed my Latin Knights :/) but we are equal in infantry. So what does this stat do in the game, and what is more important, Discipline or Morale?

Discipline and morale do different things. Morale determines when an enemy will retreat whilst discipline will determine the number of casualties they take. Winning a battle is an abstract concept, they may have forced your men into retreat however they may have taken 10 times as many casualties. Don't be deterred, there is also a certain amount of luck involved. On top of this did they have a) a better general, b) a terrain advantage, c) better rolls than you, d) a higher cav to inf ratio or e) a tech advantage.

So which is more important? I would say morale, although some military ideas give a great boost in discipline. Also, if Austria's calvary outclasses you in shock, then that is something else to consider.

Morale pretty much becomes an obsolete difference late game as armies will always stick around long enough to wipe each other out. IMO winning the battle isn't really that important compared to inflicting far higher casualties, if you have lower morale you just need to try and fight with a terrain advantage to win the battle - or acknowledge you will lose and have a stack one province away to retreat onto.
 
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From what I noticed Discipline while increasing damage it does morale dmg as well. The best way to notice this is to add a line to the static_modifers.txt to the very easy player rows: discipline = 5
This gives you a total of 600% discipline.
Now add a line tot he very easy A.I.: Land_morale = 10 (or something like that)
This will give the enemy armies +10 mora which - at start - would mean around 12-14 morale.

In the end the enemy armies morale will fail in a matter of seconds while having heavy casualties despite the extra morale they have.

in the late game units themselfs have high morale and dmg modifiers while your discipline will never be much higher thant 120-140% and this keeps armies at line. If you'd cheat yourself to higher discipline the enemy would falter in morale just as easly as in early game.

So I'd say discipline is very important despite the fact that late game armies decimate each other. Its easier and safer to route the enemy and hunt him down.

On a matter of Italy vs Austria. If you are attacking keep in mind that those provinces i the mountains can have -4 or -5 terrian modifier for an attacking army. If you do not have a general with 5 or 6 manouver skill, dont even try. You could retreat - this means losing the battle with almost only prestige dmg - and then move in again in hope to get a better terrain modifier, well.. like -1 or -2. They tend to have good generals as well so keep a close watch on them. if you see the enemy army has a general and yours do not you'll lose the battle even if you have 20-30% more troop.
And ofc Land tech is a dramatic modifier as well. If you ave land tech 6 and they have land tech 9-or 10, you are doomed. Period :D
 
Well if you have superior morale, tech and discipline you will allways win battle. If not, then every edge you can get helps.

You could still lose if they have the terrain advantage and get lucky rolls.

From what I noticed Discipline while increasing damage it does morale dmg as well. The best way to notice this is to add a line to the static_modifers.txt to the very easy player rows: discipline = 5
This gives you a total of 600% discipline.
Now add a line tot he very easy A.I.: Land_morale = 10 (or something like that)
This will give the enemy armies +10 mora which - at start - would mean around 12-14 morale.

In the end the enemy armies morale will fail in a matter of seconds while having heavy casualties despite the extra morale they have.

in the late game units themselfs have high morale and dmg modifiers while your discipline will never be much higher thant 120-140% and this keeps armies at line. If you'd cheat yourself to higher discipline the enemy would falter in morale just as easly as in early game.

So I'd say discipline is very important despite the fact that late game armies decimate each other. Its easier and safer to route the enemy and hunt him down.

On a matter of Italy vs Austria. If you are attacking keep in mind that those provinces i the mountains can have -4 or -5 terrian modifier for an attacking army. If you do not have a general with 5 or 6 manouver skill, dont even try. You could retreat - this means losing the battle with almost only prestige dmg - and then move in again in hope to get a better terrain modifier, well.. like -1 or -2. They tend to have good generals as well so keep a close watch on them. if you see the enemy army has a general and yours do not you'll lose the battle even if you have 20-30% more troop.
And ofc Land tech is a dramatic modifier as well. If you ave land tech 6 and they have land tech 9-or 10, you are doomed. Period :D

If you kill all their men then of course their morale will drop -.-

Discipline is important later in the game (post 64k battles) for one main reason. Armies are limited such that no more than 64k can engage in battle at any one time (32 front row, 32 back row) therefore, with just a 10% discipline advantage you are effectively deploying an extra 6.4k into the battle. On top of this discipline reduces damage to your troops, which will conserve them so they will fight for longer and will also mean your mp pool will be used up less.
 
If you kill all their men then of course their morale will drop -.-

Discipline is important later in the game (post 64k battles) for one main reason. Armies are limited such that no more than 64k can engage in battle at any one time (32 front row, 32 back row) therefore, with just a 10% discipline advantage you are effectively deploying an extra 6.4k into the battle. On top of this discipline reduces damage to your troops, which will conserve them so they will fight for longer and will also mean your mp pool will be used up less.

Yeeah obviosly. But then, maybe not. I've done some testing with this yesterday (conveniently I was in trouble understanding discipline as well). There were some occasions where the enemy barly lost man in the first part of the battle. I had 8 regiment in strength they had 10 and I modified the files to give them +10 morale and I had 300% discipline. in the frist 2 week of the battle they were at 9 I was at 8 but here morale was already in read. THen suddenly They went down to 6k and at the same time they were routed.
I'm not confident but I do think there is maybe a direct mora dmg as well with discipline.

And despite the fact that the tooltip refers to increased defensive capability I've yet to find evidence to that. The paradox wiki does not mention if Discipline has any impact in dmg received nor did I see any difference in my testing with 300 and even with 600% discipline. There were like 2 occasion where I destroyed half the enemy army before they routed and I only sustained like 5% losses, but then again this happened a couple of times with normal game rules. Guess you can get really really lucky with a good general and a slight tech advance.
All in all, I have not found any clue to the defensive attitude of Discipline skill.
 
On top of this did they have a) a better general, b) a terrain advantage, c) better rolls than you, d) a higher cav to inf ratio or e) a tech advantage.

Austria pushed into the Balkans. They are very blobby, theyve expanded into Hungry and Greece, and are now working on Anatolia. I assume that they are using Hungarian Cav b/c I too have taken a few Ottoman Cores, and they dont have the same Cavalry. As for techs and Generals, Were roughly equal in techs (sometimes Im 1 up, sometimes 1 down, but never by too much) and I have good generals, but so do they :\. They do have a more Cav, their formations are 70-80% cav, with few infantry and artillery support. My formations are always a 10-5-5 ratio, inf-cav-art. I dont understand how their cav can overwhelm my infantry though, my infantry has better stats then the Cav.

Ive gotten the Latin Carecole Cav, so hopefully this will equalize the cavalry discrepancy.
 
Austria pushed into the Balkans. They are very blobby, theyve expanded into Hungry and Greece, and are now working on Anatolia. I assume that they are using Hungarian Cav b/c I too have taken a few Ottoman Cores, and they dont have the same Cavalry. As for techs and Generals, Were roughly equal in techs (sometimes Im 1 up, sometimes 1 down, but never by too much) and I have good generals, but so do they :\. They do have a more Cav, their formations are 70-80% cav, with few infantry and artillery support. My formations are always a 10-5-5 ratio, inf-cav-art. I dont understand how their cav can overwhelm my infantry though, my infantry has better stats then the Cav.

Ive gotten the Latin Carecole Cav, so hopefully this will equalize the cavalry discrepancy.

Don't be fooled by the pips, inf are awful compared to cavalry due to tech modifers.
 
Don't be fooled by the pips, inf are awful compared to cavalry due to tech modifers.

Truth, cavalry got like 3x-4x shock modifire. Even while fire phase kick in, this just make them equal at least. Also cavalry can attack from flank, being 2 fields far(so you should allways keep at least 2 cavalry units, for flanking).
 
Austria pushed into the Balkans. They are very blobby, theyve expanded into Hungry and Greece, and are now working on Anatolia. I assume that they are using Hungarian Cav b/c I too have taken a few Ottoman Cores, and they dont have the same Cavalry. As for techs and Generals, Were roughly equal in techs (sometimes Im 1 up, sometimes 1 down, but never by too much) and I have good generals, but so do they :\. They do have a more Cav, their formations are 70-80% cav, with few infantry and artillery support. My formations are always a 10-5-5 ratio, inf-cav-art. I dont understand how their cav can overwhelm my infantry though, my infantry has better stats then the Cav.

Ive gotten the Latin Carecole Cav, so hopefully this will equalize the cavalry discrepancy.
I would assume you are at around 1550? at that stage of the game you would be better of just ditching the artillery and make your 20k stacks up of 2k-4k cav and the rest as inf, its a lot more cost effective that way and will enable you to use a larger army

also can you post a screen of your current slider set up?
 
My Europe

amXl5.jpg


My sliders

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