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Did you like your 15 seconds of fame Usually_Insane? Or was it 15 minutes? I don't remember ;)

You were the first winner of our contest to enter the game, after lawkeeper's rigged preview. I am sure that little war that you are proposing ought to give a chance for other winners.

I take the opportunity to remind that historic or just "in character" contributions to the other thread are always very, very welcome.
 
Yes! :) You really described my skilled normal self... errr, I mean, I would never cut down innocents like that, no siree! absolutly not...

I'll probably have to write a report explaining certain, Untruthful! allegations... :rolleyes:
 
u_i--I hope you do. That just adds flavor to the experience. Can't wait to read "your" side of it!

Cornaro_G.gif


I have heard with interest the proposal that Genoa be added to our alliance. And I submit that I did not hear well the national report. I heard Senator Dandalo's suggestion, glanced over the report and never noticed the fact that Bosnia was still a vassal. I thought she had thrown that off. As long as she is not in the OE alliance, that is probably fine.

But adding Genoa. . . Why not I say? Of course, Capitano Usually_Insane, fresh off his successful quelling of the rebellion says this is "a deal with the devil." Perhaps, but if the Sultan invaded Hell, I would at least make a favourable reference to the Devil, asking us to add them to the alliance. I think this is brilliant idea from Senator Gandolfi! I have been trying to remind us that our move into Italy is yet to come. There is plenty of time to deal with Genoa.

And besides, why always consider war or conflict? If we could gain Genoa's addition, who is to say that in some distant time, they would take steps to join our glorious Republic on their own accord? I know, I know--it would seem preposterous, but less likely alliances have occurred in the far distant past. Who, after the treachery of Thermopylae, would think that some 60 years later, the Spartans would ally with the Persians to war against Athens? Did not, later, Alexander then turn again to destroy the Persians?

Why not use Genoa? Senator Gandolfi is right that with their navy, we would be greatly aided. Plus, with their location in Kerch, they are close enough to be of real use.

Doge, I add Genoa to my list of Friends, for the immediate moment; please make note of the change of my vote.

Doge, I also have a question of you--is it your understanding that the Crusade is going to happen even with the limited support? Will there be a clear war soon? If so, perhaps our moment looms for if we can move once the Turk is engaged with other combatants, then the way could lay open for us to land troops in Symrna while also working to cut off the Hellespont, taking Macedonia and so forth. Of course, Capitano Fodoroni will know better than I how to proceed, but back to my question---will there be an actual war or will the other nations only sound forth clanging cymbols, signifying nothing?
 
aegandolfi said:
I wish to propose a far more radical suggestion.

Genoa is alone, and despite the vitriol against them in this Senate, we have good relations with them, +125.

Pardoning our long life enemies is indeed too much to swallow for many in this senate, senator Gandolfi. But I must say that, as the Dux Pacificus, as some of you call me in their vain attempt to insult me, I have considered the possibility of sending embassadors of good will with presents to their doge Giovanni d'Angiú. I have been prevented from doing so by the clear mandate from this senate. Our current relationship with them is a clear indication of their willingness to leave behind some of the most terrible pages in Italian history.

Pasquale Malipiero, Dei Gratia Dux Venetiarum etc.


Note: It is a lot of fun to change parties and positions from doge to doge :D
Indeed we would never be able to diplovassalize them, but they would gleefully join our alliance if we give them a little money before asking. OTOH that probably means troubles with France, that is expanding in that area, also allies have a little mind of their own and they could go after Savoy and Austria-Styria-Bohemia-Hungary giving us a three front war while we fight the Turks.
 
carlec said:
Doge, I also have a question of you--is it your understanding that the Crusade is going to happen even with the limited support? Will there be a clear war soon? If so, perhaps our moment looms for if we can move once the Turk is engaged with other combatants, then the way could lay open for us to land troops in Symrna while also working to cut off the Hellespont, taking Macedonia and so forth. Of course, Capitano Fodoroni will know better than I how to proceed, but back to my question---will there be an actual war or will the other nations only sound forth clanging cymbols, signifying nothing?[/i]

Dear Cornaro, God has given the Piccolomini Pope a strong spirit in a feeble body. He is not discouraged by the poor results of the congress that we hosted in Mantua, and despite my advise to the contrary and his everyday worsening health, he is willing to take the cross himself and walk with it to the Sublime Porte where the sultan resides. Of course he will ask us to provide the ships so his walking becomes more bearable. I have already advised the Council to ignore this ill-devised crusade as all the rest of the Christian princes are doing. I have it for certain that those who join him will meet their untimely deads. It stays to any country wether they want to join or not the crusade, but I rest assured that none will join and we will make a fool of ourselves if we do. The "Bulla Sacra Cruciata" indicates that the countries that join the Saint Crusade will have six months to declare war to the Turk, to guarantee the organization of a joint effort.

On the other matter, there is no doubt that you paint a very rosy scenary where our small armies destroy the hosts of Satan without peril. I wish it would be so, but the Osmanlis have assambled the best and more numerous army Europe has ever seen, and through their abominable children tax on subjugated Christian have created a monster creature, the Janissaries, that I have it for certain cannot be defeated, because in their apostasy, it is said that they are leaded by the Prince of Darkness himself.
 
carlec said:
Doge, I add Genoa to my list of Friends, for the immediate moment; please make note of the change of my vote.

You can edit your vote at any time before the closing of the election.

EDIT: Sorry, I have skipped the fact that some of you are asking "sotto voce" when the crusade will take place. Pope Pius II will ask the countries willing to participate to meet at the assembly port in Ancona (Marche) in the early summer of 1464.
 
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Dandolo.gif

What do my ears hear ? Some among my fellow Senators are proposing to ally with GENOA, thrice cursed Genoa ! :eek:

We cannot ally to Genoa. They are the test that was put by God, to let us prove we deserve and are able to rule all italians and greeks. Genoa has been our archnemesis for centuries. If we ally to them now, why couldn't we bow to the Turks next week ? Oooh, I believe the golden party would easily accept such a shame. We could renounce to our sovereignty on all lands extra muros. We could accept a tyrant at the head of the State. We could surrender our freedom, and quit the laguna. Oh yes, we could, but we would betray all our fathers, all those Venetians who have given their life and soul for the Serenissima, during those last FIVE HUNDRED YEARS.

I can hardly believe it. It is a double act of treason : treason against the Serenissima Repubblica, treason against the memory of my father.

Unless... unless it is their great age. Maybe they are not fit anymore to be the minds guiding our City to Greatness. We are already cursed with a timorous and cowardly Doge, and now so many Senators are becoming senile. May God save the Republic.

Genoa and Osmanlils delenda sunt.
 
Bridle your tongue, young Dandolo. If you cannot mantain your forms I will have you expelled from this Hall.
Your father would have showed us more respect even if we can be sure he would have shared your view.
Cannot you hear the war drums that our Italian conquests have awakened. Aragon and France and the rest of the free cities of Italy, together with the emperor could join the Pope against us. What will you say when the Swiss mercenaries get to the gates of Venice?
I say it is better if for a time we show a kind face. Let them rest, better sleep. We will get to them one by one in their slumber. Until then, a conciliatory policy is our best weapon.
Have you forgotten the main lesson that our Roman ancestors left us? Divide et Impera.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that because our heads are white we are just fools
 
Dandolo.gif
Doge,

Have you not learnt the lesson Byzantines showed us ? Stagnate, and die. They rested on their laurels, and they soon started to decline. And once they started to decline, they did not stop.

The same happened to Romans you cite. They welcomed barbarians, germans. They allowed them to settle in Imperial lands. Then, they allowed them to figth on behalf of the Empire. Then, the Imperators only relied on german warriors. Soon, german 'councillors' were ruling in Ravenne, first along the Imperator, and finally they disposed of him, ill-fated Romulus Augustule. And germans spred across all Western Empire, down to Africa.
The reason behind the welcome and acceptance of the germans was the same as your's : divide the barbarians, use them ones against the others. We can all see where all this led.

The same, again, happened to the Franks. Facing the viking invasion, they gave them a stretch of land on their northern coasts, called Nauremandee, I think. A century later, the lord of those lands invaded England. A few more centuries later, the viking's great-great-...-grandchildren are the direst enemies of France. Again. Or rather, still.

No, Dux Pacificus, allying to one's enemies is not wisdom, as history taugth us. It is cowardness.


* On those final words, Senator Enrico Dandolo wraps himself in his cloak, and walks out of the Hall, proud and arrogant, yet disgusted.*
 
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Fellow Senators, Respected Doge, Honored Captain General,

Though it is true I have served in this Senate for almost 40 years, might I remind my young colleagues that Cato the Elder continued to serve Rome well into his 80's and I am still some years short of that age.

The attitude of my fellow Senators confuses me. They hunger for war with the Turk, who I grant are a grave threat to Christendom, while they possess an army over twice ours. At the same time we have no real allies, only our two vassals who possess little force, and are vulnerable to annexation in any war.

At the same time, we are hated by the Pope (and he has powerful allies in Aragon), and the Germans and French look to expand into Italy.

We surely can not fight the whole world alone. And yet Senators also insist that we never join another alliance.

Where would my colleagues look for allies?

The Genoese may be an evil, but they are most assuredly the lesser of two (or three or four) evils we face. They can never aspire to conquer our lands, unlike the Turk or the French. At most they can take a few ducats of our trade.

Why not ally with them now and let them spend their treasure and blood to help us, not injure us? If they betray us, they can be dealt with later, and my colleagues, we will have the CB for your beloved crusade to Kerch.

Also remember, it would be a grave danger to all Italy if a power such as France was ever to gain control of Genoa and it's CoT.

I see two paths. If we want to be peaceful, we can remain aloof. But if we seek war, we need allies.

Respectfully,

Arturo Gandolfi
 
<Aged Carlo Cornaro rushes after the young Dandolo-->

Enrico, Enrico--please halt and don't force an old man to chase you down. I feel and know your passion against Genoa. Your father, may he rest in peace, was a dear friend, the first to truly welcome me to these August halls all these long many years ago.

Your eruption, if I may be so bold through my grey hairs, on the history of Rome is excellent. We will have need of your insight in years to come, when you and young Eduardo are old, for a day is coming when many who are not native Venetian, perhaps not even Greek, are a part of our Republic. The questions of who is a citizen to vote on such matters will have to be debated in those days. It is so true that the Romans, like the Greeks before them, struggled with these questions. But in that day, you and your descendents surely will not refuse to raise up warriors from these far distant provinces.

Genoa is your enemy; she is my enemy also. She must be dealt with, but patience my young Senator. Now is not the time. Perhaps I was rash to say we should ally with Genoa, but I think not. Her navy and armies can serve our cause; perhaps if nothing else, it could give the Bey another target to attack rather than our lands.

Please return with me and discuss this.


<Sadly, slowly, Carlo returns alone to the Senate Hall-->

My friends, I could not persuade our impetuous young Senator to return with me. We shall see.

Doge, right you are that perhaps Genoa could lead us into danger. We should not ally with them if our plans for the infidel are too many years off. But as we deal with Genoa, we can always leave the alliance if she joins a war that we don't feel proper. Yes it gives them a CB--what of it? Let them attack and save us the energy at that moment. And, of France, is not Savoy still between Genoa and them? Certainly we have time before we must consider the growing power in the West.

Senator Gandolfi, it is only my pride that urges me to avoid alliances that I cannot control. Perhaps I am wrong. I will listen to reason. But wars that are started by nations other than ours can end when they are ready, not us. Alliances that are headed by nations other than us can move in directions not of our choosing and then, when a more opportune friend becomes available, you are not able to invite them in. But I could be wrong; it is simply how I have run my own business and life.

And, also addressing you Capitano Fodoroni, perhaps I hold too vaunted an opinion on our choices and options and ability of our armies. Yes, we are small and if we are attempting to face the Ottomans on a field of battle like Alexander at Granicus River, then I agree our efforts are foolhardy. We are not. For certain the Bey will attempt to move on one, or perhaps two provinces of ours at one time. With overwhelming numbers, for sure. Yet, in the meanwhile, we can be aggressively moving on multiple locations at once. And, if indeed Genoa WAS in our alliance, do not forget that the Bey would love to possess Kerch as much as we would. So, it would not surprise me to see him sending many troops that way either.

Finally, I do not really think we should attack alone. We should be wise as serpants and attack when the Turk has already been attacked. Hence my question about the Crusade. If there will NOT be a real Crusade, then we'll have to wait.

Remember friends, my initial request was NOT a vote to go to war immediately. My request was to give the Doge the ABILITY to go to war without concerns about a CB or asking our opinion, BASED ON the right moment in time. When I first asked, the Ottomans were grappling with the Hungarians. Had we struck at that moment, things might have gone very well for us. That is what we need to look for in our future. If its 30 years from now, long after I am dead, then so be it. But we must be ready.


[Fodoron or whoever, so the calling of the Crusade simply won't send those other nations to war. I couldn't really tell, but if I am hearing you right, it simply gives everyone a CB for 6 months. I was hoping that Hungary or whoever else you said was supportive at the meeting, would simply just launch off into a war. That would certianly be best for us.]
 
A middle-aged and ailing man enters the room aided by his young wife and two men that could only be his sons, who seem no older than his wife. It takes some time before you realize what family this is, the Falisci. This isn't the most powerful or influential family of Venice and if they are known for anything it is their aloofness in political affairs. Their presence in Venice waxes and wanes with the years and with them present now, great events must be in the works or perhaps a great disaster. Naturally, their appearance causes a bit of a stir.

The sickly man speaks, "Gentlemen, gentlemen. Forgive this interruption and I hope you will all do an sickly man a kindness by allowing my wife and sons to remain. I've not be the same since the poisoning and tire rather quickly and oftentimes need their aid. KNOW THIS!" he booms. "Both my wife, Elena, and my eldest son, Giuseppe, are in my innermost counsels and speak with my authority when I am unable to."

That this man, Fortunato, would need aid is readily apparent. He already looks to be in agony by simply addressing the council.

He continues in a much weakened voice. "I have heard much of the arguments and ideas over the years and indeed Veneto has grown great in past years. This is good, good for us all."

This shell of a man is set upon by a fit of coughing and his sons steady him. The fit subsides and he nods to his young wife.

You all assume she is young due to her what seems a girlish figure beneath the incredible amount of clothing noblewomen of the age wore but try as you might, you cannot pierce the heavy veil that covers her face. Veil is not the correct term, perhaps, as it conjures to mind the veils of the Mohammedian women. This is more akin to a fishing net in design or rather like a spider web. This isn't an uncommon item at all but one so heavy and tightly woven to conceal one's features is. The thought that she has something to hide is the first thing to cross your mind but it also lends an aura of mystery to her as well.

"I hope you distinguished gentleman do not mind a woman speaking. I do not claim to know of all the great things that you do nor do I much understand them and I only seek to act to convey what my husband would if his health was better," and at that she turns back to Fortunato and he nods in approval.

Her voice is not that of a very mature woman, further reinforcing the idea that she is young, teenaged at most. "He bids you caution to alliances with outside powers, especially with great powers. Real power cannot be forged in such a manner and one will find themselves the great power's servant. True power for Veneto diplomatically can only be gained by heading an alliance of weaker states. Thus, in time, Veneto shall be the master over them. Such is the way of power politics of the past and in our own age. Look at the Greeks of antiquity, they invited Rome to aid them and thus found themselves servants of that Empire. It is no different now, I am afraid," and she turns to her husband who was smiling and nodding.

She continues on. "What I find completely mind-boggling is the allowal of the Tyrolian takeover of Milan. Have we so soon forgotten our Republic's past? Do we convinently forget the ages of Teuton domination over our city-states? Know this, senators! These Teutons would love nothing more than to reduce us to servitude if they could. Do not forget the sacrificies of the Lombard League in ages past when the great Teuton, Redbeard tried and failed to enslave the city-states. The city-states have united in the past to defeat external enemies and if ever there was an opportunity to do so it is now. Would not the city-states working in concert, united, not be a powerful force to counter the aggressions of our enemies, including the Turk? Think well on these words before involving us in subservient roles in the alliances that seek only to reduce us to bondage," and she paused a moment for effect, "and if such a league were constructed with powerful Veneto at it's head, would it not make us their masters instead?" and one could imagine she was smiling mischievously beneath her veil.

Fortunato waved his wife over to him and they spoke a bit but in the end it was his son, Giuseppe, that continued. "Gentleman, Senators, people of the Republic, I bid you well. This must be a bit confusing to you all I am certain, no? This will not take long, this I promise and it involves possible war with the Turks should that be the path that is decided. If the Senate rules to war with the Turk, we must remove them utterly and completely from the Rumeli side of the Bosphorus. Only then will we be safe with the Turks safely caged in Anadolu and held at bay by our powerful navy. What these lands will really add to our Republic is another question entirely. The granary of Macedonia would be a prize but at what cost?

We stand at a crossroads, gentlemen. And perhaps at a time that will make or break our Republic. Success can be found in many paths, I believe, but we can only afford to take one path at a time. So what shall that path be?"


[OOC: I decided to be a wee bit creative at developing this family and hopefully you don't mind me taking a bit of creative license here. It's an attempt to weave a story within the greater story of Venice. If there is a problem, I can certainly revise the story or even scrap it. Hopefully, there are no problems but if so let me know and I'll push things on my end to conform with the general consensus.]
 
Senator Fortunato Falisci,

That you have ventured in your state to assist the senatorial meeting speaks highly of your sense of duty. Only for that I want you to feel the warmth of our welcoming to your assistance. Clearly the grave matters that we are discussing have prompted you to do so. I do regret that you did not vote for the matters in discussion, since the elections are now closed. I urge you to vote on the next elections, as it constitutes not only our privilege, but also our duty. Abstention in the matters that do not concern us is a well considered possibility, since we have ourselves for wise men that do not speak when do not have anything to say.

I have one more question for you, since this is your first attendance. Other senators may not remember the history of the Falisci, an ancient tribe from Etruria that fought first the Etruscans and then the Romans before joining the Roman Empire in 241 BC. They inhabited the town of Falerii, north of Rome. Some say that the patrician family of the Falier that came to Venice at the start of our Republic were of that origin, although others cite the city of Faleria (Falerone) in Marche as their origin. All this comes to the following, the Falier are a noble family that do not bear the guilt for what one of his most known members, Marino Faliero, did. Of that I will not speak today, since he is the only doge to have been executed in office. If you are indeed a member of this noble family, you need not to hide your name. Since that most unfortunate event, the Faliero family has taken on their old name of Valiero, and they bear with pride their beautiful coat of arms, with a crowned eagle. But Valiero or Falisci, we hope to count on your counsel, as often as your health allows. Your sons, if over 25, will become also senators in this Chamber, and will soon join our armies when duty calls them.


Malipiero2.gif
Pasquale Malipiero, LXVI Dux Venetiarum etc.
66.jpg

[Braedonnal: It is great that you are willing to contribute so much. All posts (like yours) pertaining to our discussions on policies and elections belong here. Posts that do not relate with the decissions to advance the game (historic, narrative, or just fun) go to the brother thread here

Elections 18 and 19 are now closed. I will update results and links as time allows. Results will be posted in the respective elections.
 
The wife of senator Barbarigo enters the office of the Doge..

Honarable doge, my husband Aureo Barbarigo is very ill, and has not been able to attend the meetings lately. His eyes are failing him and and he has lost a lot of weight. I fear for his life! However, the fever has subsided and from his sickbed he wish to send you a note of his opinions in this matter. Know that he thinks of Venice foremost of all, even before his own family!
He is very upset about the talks of the alliance with Genoa, and wish to stress the importance of a strong navy if war is declared on the Ottomans. If Mehmed II is found to lead a very strong army in the Balkans rather than in Asia we should also consider staying out of war. In any case, he advise us to stay in Europe, even though we all know he has little military influence. I hope you will allow this vote, even if it's not made by him personally, but rather from a letter by his nephew.


Code:
Election 18.
1. Tuscany, Naples, Cyprus, Bosnia
2. Albania
3. Genoa, Ottoman Empire, Egypt
4. WAR

Code:
Election 19.
1A, 1B: Yes
1C, 1D, 1E, 1D: No
2A: Yes
2B, 2C, 2D: No
3A: Yes
3B, 3C: No
4B, 4C: No
5: Macedonia, Bulgaria, Serbia, Smyrna
6A
7B
 
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I hope senator Barbarigo gets well, although I fear for him due to his advanced age.

Tell him that his vote will be taken into consideration, as well as his always wise advice.

Doge Malipiero
 
The next period of 5 years has been played (1459-1463). No, we haven't declared war to the OE yet. A good oportunity hasn't come. But we are preparing for it.

Since there haven't been any choice event, and there are no scheduled elections, I will proceed with the next one that will probably see our long protracted Veneto-Turkish war.

Meanwhile I will be posting the usual reports and historic trivia.
 
1459-1463 Account:

Year 1459
-Quality +1 (now 7)
Stability dropped by -1 to 0
Built 8 galleys for 56D

Important international events nearby
OE, KK, Sirvan & Yemen Dow Karaman
The Government of Naples fell again
Aragon entered alliance with England, Castile, Brandenburg & Livonian Order
Aragon with all his allies Dow Papal States
Provence annexed by France

Our diplomacy
Renewed alliance with Naples and Tuscany

Year 1460
Stability raised to +1
Nobles demand increased pentions happened to us. We refused and stability dropped to -1
Stradioti happened to us (Land +1, Offensive +1, Aristocracy +1, Manpower in Corfu +1, +10,000 cav.)
Built 2 galleys for 20D

Important international events nearby
Karaman surrendered Konya and 78D to OE
OE and KK DoW Albania

Our diplomacy

Year 1461
Our Naval technology advanced to 3
Built 2 galleys for 20D
Stability raised to 0
Foreign trade competititon raises happened to us, we chose to increase mercantilism

Important international events nearby
Papal States government succumbed to rebels. They lost Siena to Aragon
Genoa formed alliance with Moldavia
3 different alliances DoW Burgundy and France, Austria Styria and Hungary dishonored.

Our diplomacy

Year 1462
Built 2 galleys for 20D
Doge Cristoforo Moro is our new Monarch
Silver Crisis happened to us (trade -500, ADM -3 for 12 months, -50D, Inflation +2, Stability -1)

Important international events nearby

Our diplomacy

Year 1463
Petition for redress happened to us, we chose to grant it (stability -3, centralization +1)
Direct taxes happened to us (serfdom -1, centralization +1, aristocracy +1, Inflation -3, +200D, Stability +1)

Important international events nearby
Albania surrendered Kosovo and 50D to OE
Austria inherited Styria (they got Steiermark, while Hungary got Krain)

Our diplomacy
 
Ally with Austria

Captain General,

Are either Austria or Hungary still without allies? Either would make a fine addition to our alliance, although I suspect Austria has much better relations with us.

I would propose we ask Austria to join our alliance immediately.

Since we would probably not invite our allies to fight the Turks, it doesn't matter that they don't border them. But their addition would help dissuade other from attacking us, and they could help if we ever want to take Lombardy from Tyrol.

Respectfully,

A Gandolfi
 
Cornaro_G.gif


Greetings my friends and Senators--Doge excuse my interruption of your annual report, but I bear news from Cyprus. As you all know, my father Carlo sailed to Cyprus after the joyous news of the successful vote on the Ottoman issue.He has sent me news that he arrived well and is enjoying his time with Andrea.


If you wish to read more about the news from Cyprus, go to our sister thread. [post=3787612] Il Senato della Republica Venetiana[/post]
 
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aegandolfi said:
Are either Austria or Hungary still without allies? Either would make a fine addition to our alliance, although I suspect Austria has much better relations with us.

I would propose we ask Austria to join our alliance immediately.

Senator Gandolfi,
Both Austria and Hungary are temporarily without allies. We have good relationship with Austria (+122), but neutral (+0) with Hungary (they still haven't forgetten the Dalmatia incident of 1419).
I clearly saw the opportunity of joining Austria to our alliance, but Austria is not and has never been in our list of Dear friends.

I always emphasize the importance of that election, because our diplomats might have only a few days to act, and obviously the game cannot be stopped for every opportunity that might or might not realize. If we vote too much on things that then don't happen the AAR will be dead. We have already voted twice on Genoa, only to see the circumstances overruling us.

Senators must enter the nations that are of importance to Venice into the appropiate categories, even if they are not currently available. Thus the importance of separating nations into the four groups so I know how to react to them.

For this period, Austria is in our friends group with 5 votes, not being elegible for an invitation into our alliance. I have plans to play the next period over the weekend, probably Sunday.

If by then I have received four requests to include Austria into our alliance from senators that participated in that election*, I will invite them to join. If not, the next election will be in 1469.

*Senators that did not participate are welcome to express their view, but it will be neccesary two votes from them to overrule the vote of a senator that did vote.