[MAP-MOD in progress] Charta Europaea Nova/ New European Map

Thure said:

And the Catalan counties



So... The most important counties of Catalonia a now in the game. Now you can also play with Pallars, Cerdanya and Besalú (Girona is Part of Barcelona).

And Aragon start with 3 counties. Aragon, Sobrarbe and Ribagorza.

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Catgasmic.

I've got to say, it's one of the best renditions on the shape and significance of the Catalan Counties I've ever seen in games or mods of any kind.

There are only two complains (I'm gonna be very nitpicky here, so sorry):

1- Lleida stretches to the sea. The March of Lleida organised by Ramon Berenguer III didn't get to the sea. It seems like the material you based this map on incorporates the Lordship of Tarragona into Lleida, but it was actually tied to the March of Tortosa. I'll explain later. Another reason is that during the race between the Counts of Barcelona, the Counts of Urgell and the Kings of Aragon for the city of Lleida, all three had the opportunity to seize it. But if Aragon or Urgell had seized it, then they would also control a stretch of land into the sea that was since the beginning of the game held by Barcelona (the baronies and marches of Olèrdola and Penedès)

2- The March of Tortosa: Tarragona was an important city until the Muslims burt it down around 720 (aprox, while conquering the Peninsula). It was one of the few towns that opposed severe resistance; Tariq and Musa didn't take it nicely and demolished most of the town.

For the next centuries, until it was reconquered by the bishop of Barcelona, Oleguer, and a band of Norman mercenaries, in the XIIth Century, it was a field of ruins, refuge of bandits and with a meaningless population of a hundred, at most.

Even then, when the Archbishopric was restored and the town proper given to the Archbishop, the city remained small. Ramon Berenguer III conquered Tortosa, the real powerhouse of the lower Ebro valley, and created the March of Tortosa that spanned over all your "county of Tarragona".

Eventually the "Marquisate" was given to the elder branch of the Seneschals of Barcelona, the House of Montcada, while the "Lordship of Tarragona" was granted to Robert Aguiló, a Norman knight, commander of the band that had helped Oleguer to take Tarragona back. But the town itself, Tarragona, was kept under the Archbishop's jurisdiction.

Also, the province you've made right now doesn't include the proper town of Tarragona, that under your map youd be inside the county of Lleida...

****

On a sidenote, Besalú seems to be eating part of the counties of Ripoll and Berga, which were held by the Count of Cerdanya, but it's not important.

Might I ask where did you take your sources from?

If you need some help with baronies in these new counties, I'll gladly help you. Vanilla didn't do a good job with them...

Thure said:

And between Chablais and Valais are Saint-Maurice, yes. The Savoyard part of Valais.

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-allright it is just I can't read the name, it is sometimes named "old Chablais" in documents, opposing to "French Chablais", the part you called Chablais. the upper right corner of the province might go to Bern (Gstaad area IIRC). Saint maurice belong to Valais until 1077 : savoisian invasion.

-Piemont as it is drawn might be Aosta.

-I saw you grouped together Chablais + Faucigny. You can make Faucigny a barony there but being a vassal of Vienne as it was until the end of CK period. (de jure CB will scratch it very soon but yeah)

I think that's it for my part for now^^

Thure said:

This one has design reasons. If I would give Berga and Ripoll to Cerdanya, the whoule region of Rosselló (Cerdanya+Rosselló) would be destroyed.

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You're right there.

That would be nice! The other counties (I can't but all on the map) should be baronies. So: Osona (Barcelona), Berga, Ripoll (in Besalú but owned by Cerdanya), Conflent (Cerdanya), Vellespir (Rosselo), Peralada (Empúries). Pallars Jussà should also be a baronie in Pallars.

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[/QUOTE]

Quite right. Also, I'd propose that baronies be called "viscounties" in Occitan and Catalan culture. But that's on you entirely.

My suggestions on baronies, considering the Lleida modification (Lleida being landlocked):

Thure said:

So. Some fixes:



I have rework Nîmes and Bordeaux



Genf, Savoyen and Bresse with new borders.



And Tarragona controll the coast.

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Damn, thank you very much for attending to little details like those! That County of Beziers! I'm dying to play the Trencavels now!

About new counties and baronies, I understand that making the characters to hold them is a real pain in the ass, so if you need any help at all with this, don't hesitate asking me. I can send you files for the counties and baronies with their holders (although creating the characters is outisde my scope).

This is the mod I have been waiting for ! More provinces to the game, more diversity. I beg of you to reach Wallachia soon, and remake the Romanian counties properly, Paradox did a poor job with them =[

Yes, I think it's gonna be the ultimate map mod.

Cèsar de Quart said:

Yes, I think it's gonna be the ultimate map mod.

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...The one I'm waiting for a while SWMH have a nice work with vanilla map, but it's not it. Some thing can't be helped without replacing the map with the new one, than only adding and shaping provinces.

And so, I'm waiting 'til the central-eastern part of Europe will be shown (Mappa Regnorum was good with that, but there would still be some more to do with).

Keep your work like that and it might be a great map mod, maybe the best one for CK2

| Iconoclast | said:

Your work is appreciated: in the previous pages you can find a layout for Finland, but I'm sure it can be improved.

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First of all you have to make a design decision: which names to use - the OTL historical Swedish ones, as the region became the eastern part of the Swedish realm, or the pre-Christian Finnic settlement names? Since you cannot change province names mid-game (or can you?), this is a significant decision. In case you want to portray the region of modern Finland and eastern Karelia realistically, you'd want to split even these regional entities up to single-province chiefdoms centered around hill forts - in OTL the local population didin't have wider authority, only shifting alliances that can be portrayed with in-game marriages and mechanics anyway. Just like the fate of Stigtuna shows, the peoples of modern-day Finland and Baltic states were living in societies quite similar to Viking Age Scandinavia by the time Sweden and Denmark already had a rudimentary higher authority in the form of kings and other symbols of mediecal central European Christian culture. While the people of Eastern Baltic could occasionally could muster significant gatherings of military power, there weren't any "kings of Finland" to speak of. Modern-day Baltic states were a different case, but what in the area where Finnic people lived in the beginning of first millenium AD, the term "kuningas" existed as a direct loan from Germanic languages and was only used about local chieftains, as Swedish-era papal letters condemning figures like "Cuningas de Rapalum" show.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-L8izSzEsPbY/T1tKGzVXdtI/AAAAAAAAADo/mBX4O492s-s/s800/finns.jpg

So, if you want to portray the area of Finland during Baltic Crusades and late Iron Age realistically, you also need fitting names instead of names of later settlements and Swedish names in the coast - while there has been Nordic presence in Ostrobothia and coastal areas and in western shores of Laatokka since the Viking era, naming a medieval province after a settlement established officially in 1606 is an anachronism in an otherwise excellent map mod. Here is the northern extent of larger settlements in the beginning of the game.

http://www.nba.fi/fi/Image/4842/zz-kartta-rautakausi-3.gif

Here are suggestionf for more fitting province names and setup:
Current name --> change proposal
Rovaniemi = too north for succesfull agriculture, historicaly inhabitated by small families of hunter-gathering and reindeer-herding Sámi people who were randomly taxated by all of their southern neighbours. I'd merge this to southern areas.

Kuusamo = see above, no Finnic population and thus no agriculture or activity justifying existence as a CK II province until 1500 or so.

Kvenland = see above, this is the northern extend of the influence of more agrarian cultures of southern Fennoscandia.

Kem = Uhtua - Part of the White Sea coast and lucrative trade routes where furs and walrus tusks were shipped down the great rivers of Rus and exchanged for silver. Culturally Finnic, religiously Finnic Paganism.

Revolax = Oulu or Kaakkuri, named after the oldest known settlement in the area. Culturally Finnic, religiously Old Norse or Finnic Paganism.

Vasa = Vöyri. The region was initially widely settled, but then abandoned during the Viking Age as too vulnerable to seaborne raids - as a former seabed the coast was too flat for good hillforts and clay earth could not be tilled with initial primitive farming equipment until High Middle Ages. Culturally Finnic, religiosly Old Norse or Finnic Paganism.

Birkaland = Vanajavesi. This was the most settled area of modern-day Finland, and the heart of the historical region of Häme (Tavastland in Swedish). A string of hillforts in hills, a lot of settlement among the shores of the major lakes. Culturally Finnic, religiously Finnic Paganism.

Satakunta = I'd keep the name as it is. Part of the trade network linking to Baltic, grave findings show a lot of links to Central Europe and North Sea Coast. Culturally Finnic, religiously Finnic Paganism.

Turku = another name I'd keep as it is, although the town itself wasn't established until around year 1200. The oldest continuously inhabitated region in modern-day Finland. Culturally Finnic, religiously the population had already widely adopted Christian burial rites by the time of the Danish and Swedish crowns begun to expand their influence to the area. Thus the province religion should be either Catholic or some Christian heresy representing their synchetistic worldview.

Nyland = Third name I'd keep as it is. In both Finnish and Swedish the area is called "New land" as it was historically abandoned by Finnic-speaking population as too vulnerable to raiders from the sea during Viking Ages. Mostly uninhabitaded at the time the first game scenario begins, in later scenarios culturally mixed (Swedish-speaking coasts and Finnic population inland) and Catholic.

Lahti = Hollola. Part of the Häme Region centered around lake Päijänne. Culturally Finnic, religiously Finnic Paganism.

Jyväskylä = Päijät-Häme - Part of the Häme Region centered around lake Päijänne. Culturally Finnic, religiously Finnic Paganism.

Vyborg = I´d split this province in two, leave western half as Viipuri and name the eastern half at the shore of Laatokka Korela along this border: http://www.kolumbus.fi/jukka.karvonen/htm/Images/Pahkinasaari.jpg
The population was focused on shores of Laatokka anyhow: http://www.kolumbus.fi/rastas/img/kalm_8-11.png

Name of a Swedish fortification established on a same island where local Finnic ("Karelian") population had their own wooden fort and trade depot. Culturally Finnic, starting scenario religion either Orthodox or some Orthodox heresy (to represent similar syncretism than in Western Finland)

Mikkeli = Mikkeli. Ethnically Finnic, starting religion either Finnic Paganism or previously mentioned Orthodox heresy.

Kontiolax = Savilahti. As above.

Savonia = I'd merge this province to it's neighbours - too north to have fixed agricultural presence - only hunther-gatherers and forest.

Kondopoga = I'll have to come up with a better name for this settlement as well, but at the moment I don't have the right books available.

Olonets = Kurkijoki, move the "Kontiolax" province border nothwards and merge the border of this province to the proposed province of Korela - this were the twin centers of Laatokka region, that had a lot of influence from Scandinavia due their location next to the Varangian Way and on the shores of the same lake as the old trade hub of Aldeigjuborg.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-S85A-5gSJJc/T1tKIho6TcI/AAAAAAAAAEE/XGy-3tPhxRw/s800/livs.jpg

Thure said:

I think you have post in the wronge threat? I think you mean this?

But wow. Thats a great text. I think I can use your Informations too... If you accept?

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me too, was funnily enough just trying to figure out what to do with Finland

SWMH have a nice work with vanilla map, but it's not it. Some thing can't be helped without replacing the map with the new one, than only adding and shaping provinces.

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Who says SWMH won't be ported to a new map...

Thure said:

So I have also a new version of Iceland. There are now 4 provinces. Three of them have 4 holdings at start.

I make a barony for every of the six big families of Iceland.



(Vestisland will rename to Suðurland or Sunnlendingafjórðungur)

So de feudal baronies with the families are:

Nordurland:
Glaembaer with the Ásbirningar

Austurland:
Seyðisfjörður with the Svínfellingar

Suðurland:
Oddi with the Oddaverjar.
Haukadalur with the Haukdælir

Vesturland:
Ísafjörður with the Vatnsfirðingar
Hvammur with the Sturlungar.

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The provinces looks nice(and its quite cool that you made them to fit the families) but isn't 4 holdings in an Icelandic province a bit much?

Thure said:

I don't think so. Four should be okay. There are more mans in Iceland than you know.

In the battle of Örlygstaðir fight 1000 mans on both sides. So 2000 mans. With 4 holdings the have circa 600 mans. 2400 in whole Island. But that must be tastet later in a beta I think.

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but wasn't that more or less every man of the whole Island who turned up? about historic numbers you also sometimes have to take them with a grain of salt(at the battle of Lena the Swedes apparently defeated a Danish army bigger than the one the French crown could muster at that time...)

the total population on Iceland wasn't big enough to have supported that amount of troops if they were professional or semi professional soldiers.

Thure said:

I think you have post in the wronge threat? I think you mean this?

But wow. Thats a great text. I think I can use your Informations too... If you accept?

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Aasmul said:

me too, was funnily enough just trying to figure out what to do with Finland

Who says SWMH won't be ported to a new map...

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Yeah, both of you are naturally free to use it
I can also give you freely usable and working historical pre-Christian naming system and a large list of names of Finnic characters if you want to.