The Great Patriotic War

Baltasar said:

You are still playing SF 2.04?

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Yes, I forget which patch I went to (not the last as that seemed to cause problems with CWW, but I think that only addressed some issues in pre-war diplomacy). So the end of the war is a bit unsatisfactory, but I'll rough over the edges and a few events never fire but it proved a surprisingly stable transition from 2.04c to the end. I've not had time to do much with FTM yet, I think I'll do an AI experiment and rather fancy a French game to play around the Partisan system.

Dewirix said:

Never has Swiss neutrality seemed so far-sighted, nor so ultimately pointless. I hope the gnomes of Zurich enjoy being surrounded by a communist Europe.

On the other hand, perhaps the future isn't as grim as it's painted. The USSR and its satellites will stretch across Europe, from the Pyrenees to the Peloponnese, from the Highlands to Sicily, and probably encompass China and South America by the end of the war. I can imagine Stalin being every bit as paranoid as he was in reality, but he'll be gone in less than a decade.

I can imagine a gradual thawing of the communist system in the late 50s and early 60s as the war years recede in memory, but unlike the Prague Spring we know, the Soviets might be sufficiently self-confident to allow their puppets more leeway, especially if the economic benefits of liberalisation were in part enjoyed by the USSR itself.

Of course, the role of the US in this scenario is the great unknown. Does it just shrug its shoulders and get on with life (the maximalist isolationist position), or does it actively seek to contend with Soviet influence? In the latter case, we have an asymmetric Cold War which puts the US on the back foot from the start.

I suspect the balance between socialist utopia and Orwellian nightmare would lie somewhere between the two extremes, but it's still possible that it wouldn't be as bad as our experience of late-20th century history might lead us to believe.

Oh, and great update! I hope I didn't cause offence with the 'housecleaning' comment; I just meant to suggest that we're in the 'grim determination' phase, when it's obvious that the war is won, but it remains necessary to impose that reality on the enemy.

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re the last point, no I took it as you meant it. This is just finishing off what will happen, and after August I wasn't even that efficient in how I did it which is why I'll seriously compress the time periods or it'll get very tedious.

I've been sketching out a post war world as a sort of epilogue and most of what you've said is close to my ideas. Roughly 45-54 as happened, with the Soviet leadership becoming even more suspicious of this large world they now rule than they were in reality. Post Stalin, I think there will be a lot of cross-contamination, with the Soviet system forced to open up somewhat or face the loss of regions where its ability to project power (such as Latin America) is limited. Scandinavia goes Social Democratic and comes to a modus operendi, the Swiss are allowed to exist as an economic conduit between the Soviet block & the rest of the world. Force the Soviet's European 'allies' to give up their colonies and that, plus some subversion, would lead to the collapse of the British empire. That would lead to a semi-indepent Africa and Asia that was grateful to the USSR but not actually part of the formal Soviet block.

Re the US, I can't imagine the prospect of Soviet armour on the other side of the Rio Grande would lead to a 'live and let live' mindset. So my guess is a reverse cold war, with the US contained but able to reach out - I have an idea to invert the Cuban missile crisis but with US missiles in Ireland & since Latin America will end with a UK-aligned block (that would probably fall into the US's SOI) and a Soviet block, I'd guess quite a few low intensity proxy wars in that region.

anweRU said:

I wouldn't want to be in the Axis now. As for the Pz.Gren.Div. Gross Deutchland - the elite of the elite finally met its end. It cost the lives of many a valiant Soviet soldier. May its standard be placed next to those of Napoleon's Grand Armee, as a lesson to all those who would wish to invade the Motherland!

War with Japan? This will be interesting. It does depend on the RN's performance, along with the USN. If they have mauled the IJN, then you might have an easy time invading the Home Islands, but suffer a long war of attrition (against the elements) in China.

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I found an image with all the standards being dumped at the foot of the Kremlin in July 1945, but it had so many swastikas et al that I couldn't edit it to be useable.

In terms of Japan, all I'll say at the moment is it plays out very differently to 'red sheep'

Patukov said:

What's the quality of Japanese troops/tanks in relation to the Soviet and British?

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I think the Japanese are composed of three rather different armies. One is their Chinese allies and they aren't that good - 1940/2 techs, very little doctrine. A second is the Japanese units they've been making into expeditionary forces, which have quite a lot of combat experience but are behind in techs (as Xibei etc can't upgrade them), finally there are the Japanese units in Manchuria. Good equipment, ok techs, no combat experience (& the Manchurian units are not that good either).

In terms of armour, they have nothing but light tanks and much later I get some as expeditionary forces and they are 1938 techs. So easy pickings even for my own light tanks, never mind the T-34s.

They overmatch the UK (but then the UK has massive supply problems), but are not much of a threat to the Red Army ... I've got so much combat experience (most of the units from the west are 45-50, some over 60) and my commanders are a lot better ... plus they have no answer to the medium tank divisions.

Midge said:

During the postwar map drawing period you defiantly need to extend Poland at the expense of Germany and cut Hungary down to size. The map looks quite ugly in its current state.

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Poland adopts its traditional post-war shape, I think Hungary stays as it is ... which in this timeline is fair enough. They, along with Bulgaria, switched sides, Yugoslavia and Rumania are still in the axis).

Stuyvesant said:

It's odd to see the war in Europe continue without an immediate end in sight, even though Berlin lies in ruins beneath the Red Banner. I know it's only a matter of time now, but still... I keep waiting for the lemming-like dash for the pistol and cyanide amongst the Nazi leadership. Oh well, I'm sure the likes of Goering won't mind 'directing' the war from a nice commandeered castle along the Loire.

Evidently, you believe you have transferred enough forces to the Far East to deal with the Japanese. I'm impressed that you'll be fighting a two-front war for a while - but then again, the Japanese were never going to be a match, qualitatively, and the Germans are down to the bare bones.

Looking forward to the invasion of the British Isles - that should provide some new challenges and give us some insight in how ready you are for the South American leg of your tour.

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I do prefer the FTM model where you can't substitute lost core VPs for stuff you hold elsewhere. Its a neater end than having to chase all over the place capturing towns etc just to finishe them off. In the west, now I leave a lot of forces to the rear in reserve - I just don't need them to finish off whats left of the axis. In the Far East I'd have rather had more, but the situation in SE Asia was collapsing fast.

arkham1010 said:

i would imagine the British stop on the magical communism tour will be a fairly easy undertaking, since Germany almost certanly won't have a lot of supply (berlin being captured), not a lot of IC to rebuild supply, not a lot of manpower, not a lot of navy, not a lot of troops garrisoned in the UK....

But hey, we still have the other half of germany and france to get through, plus all of italy.

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aye, I've also now taken their stocks too, so they need to supply their remaining IC from the resources they now hold. Once I break out the Baltic its a matter of attacking at my leisure - and hoping they are not too strong or I'll have all sorts of supply problems unless the UK sets up some convoys for me.

Lord Tim said:

I think you're sending a message to the British. And it's, "Who are you guys again?"

I do wonder what resistance groups would exist in England. I'll bet on trouble in Ulster, both UVF and republicans. I wouldn't be surprised by separatists in Wales and Scotland, communists in the cities, and some very posh partisans in the home counties. Dad's Army meets A Very British Civil War. I'm not sure they'd all answer to the government-in-exile. And I wouldn't be shocked by some turning against the Red Army anyway.

How much IC does Germany have left, anyway? They still have the Ruhr, and of course foreign industry, to support their efforts. I'd think raw materials would be more of a problem by now, especially oil.

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aye, you can track the change at these conferences from relative equality (both under severe pressure) to asking the UK along to tell them what to do.

As above, their IC is ok, but I've now taken their stocks so they can't operate much of what they have.

as to the UK, yes I can imagine that some of the people runniing whatever passes for the British resistance would not be impressed to see the Hammer and Sickle hanging from the local town hall. But the CPGB element would have some force. They would have had a cadre with experience with the International Brigades plus Comintern support, so perhaps numerically weak but among the more effective.

CptEasy said:

Have been off for a while - but beeing back I see A LOT has happened. Nice reading to catch up, Loki. Really nice to see those stats for a specific unit. Is that possible normal person (not being skilled in any modding-related stuff except playing the game) to get that? Had been interesting for my own AARs.

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The table is from the database I set up to record information. I needed a good record keeping if I was to play ahead and keep track. Its all manual, take a screenshot of every battle start/end and then transcribe (so no, not normal ). At the start, esp for German Pz/PzGr units I kept a track of who was at the start of each battle (useful to work out where the main blow is), so it was easy just to select the battles with the GD. It must have been in others, but not right at the start.

Deus Eversor said:

Actually, swiss might end up same like Berlin in 1949, complete isolation to enforce socialist takeover. would allies still try to create the famous airbrigde for so many more people, i not sure. But i agree with the scenario that british isles becoem just liek cuba.

About ussr and its controll over the landmass, i think that if it owuld go for liberalisation (and structural reformation proposed by Beria) i think USSR would merge with european satelites (and probably asian satelites as well) and create EU of sorts (of course more federalist version that we know today)
Today we would be learning of european socialism and leninist-stalinist legacies within it, than about the coal and steel union

About "3rd world"(of course, the socialist bloc would be the "1st world" here) i think that it would look like, social-liberal with muslim merger versions that would cooperate and sign joint ventures, like the damm on the Nile in Egypt(built by egyptian-soviet joint venture)

Of course the ussr would have to open up on the much greater teritories (western europe was not as much destroyed as eastern), the new Eurasiatic Union will of course have the issues of economical allignement but it owuld have not only soviet brains, but researchers and research centers of all europe and japan (if that will be the case)
It sounds like utopia, but existance of USSR was seen as utopia (100 years ago), not to mention European Union just those 30 years ago.

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its certainly possible - when I get to the end I may put up a post in the OT forum and take this debate over there.

morningSIDEr said:

Finally Berlin is taken! Unsurprisingly war rumbles on nonetheless (which I am rather glad about in all honesty, more updates!). The Axis is not even on its last legs anymore. I'm looking forward to what seems to be a pre-destined showdown with Great Britain in the near future, I can see matters getting out of hand between the Russia and herself with regards to matters in Asia and the British mainland. Once again then, onwards to...uhm...London!

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I actually try to avoid WW3 if I can, but the British are annoying .. useless as well, but very insistent on getting their colonies back even when I clear out the Axis units.

August Storm: The War with Japan, August 1944

Soviet planning for a war with Japan had started in June 1941 when it was clear that Japan was waging an undeclared war in Central Asia. However, for 3 years it suited both sides to maintain the fiction that this was a clash between their respective allies in central and western China. By mid-1943, briefly the situation in China stablised and Soviet planning was put on hold. Japan could wait till Germany was defeated.

However, by late 1943-early 1944 the situation worsened again. First the Finnish forces in Sinkiang fell back and again Soviet Central Asia and the Trans-Baikal element of the Trans-Siberian Railway was threatened. Second, the formal outbreak of war between Japan and France led to them making large gains in SE Asia.

On the other hand, victories first in the Baltic sector and then in the Balkans had allowed Stavka to transfer substantial forces to the Far East. In addition, the road and rail network in Trans-Baikal sector had been radically improved to allow the deployment of substantial forces on the west side of Manchuria.



Soviet planning had identified September as an ideal time to strike. The transfer of forces from Europe would be complete and it would allow 3 months of campaigning before the harsh winter set in. However, the set backs in Central Asia meant this was brought forward to August. Some units originally allocated to the sector were diverted to shore up the defence of Tannu Tuva and around Baikal (and equally 32 Corps was sent from Iran to Sinkiang) and others were still in transit.

Despite this, Kirichenko deployed a large army, mostly fully reinforced and about 50% had seen active service in the Great Patriotic War or in Central Asia. All his army and corps commanders were veterans of the war with Germany. This was divided into 3 Fronts.



To the West, the Trans-Baikal Front had 18 Rifle, 1 Motorised Rifle, 1 Guards Rifle, 4 Tank (3 Guards) and 2 Mechanized Divisions. To the North, the Ussuri Front had 8 Rifle and 1 Cavalry Divisions deployed in a huge arc along the border. The Vladivostock Front deployed 25 Rifle, 5 Guards Rifle, 3 Mountain, 1 Cavalry, 5 Mechanized and 1 Tank Divisions. In addition, 5 Garrison divisions were deployed across the Far East and the Theatre assets included 3 Paratroop Divisions.



The VVS in the region was divided into two commands. 3 Yak-9 and 2 Sturmovik squadrons were assigned to the Trans-Baikal Front, 5 Yak-9, 3 longer range Mig-3, 2 Il-4 Naval bomber, 3 Tu-2 Medium bomber squadrons to the Vladivostock Front. In addition, 3 Yak-9 squadrons were held back to protect the vital city of Vladivostock itself.

The main Far Eastern Fleet was composed of relatively modern ships but far too small to engage with the IJN.



Stavka hoped that the bulk of the Japanese fleet was tied up in their war with the USA and knew they had major fuel problems. In addition to a sizeable transport capacity, 3 relatively modern submarine squadrons were deployed to attack Japanese convoys transferring supplies and reinforcements to China. Panteleiev was ordered to avoid direct combat unless it was necessary to protect a Soviet landing in Japan. In effect, the fleet was, if needed, expected to sacrifice itself to allow Soviet ground forces to enter Japan.

In Manchuria the Soviet plan was relatively simple. The Ussuri Front was to remain on the defense and rely on the broad Ussuri river to hold off any Japanese offensive. The Trans-Baikal Front, deploying the bulk of the armour was to break through towards Shenyang and then swing south into China proper. On the Vladivostock sector, 29 and 31 Armies were to take advantage of the relatively open terrain and take Harbin. This combined with Trans-Baikal would pocket the Japanese forces in Northern Manchuria. 9 Army was to overrun Korea.

However, 29 Army had a secondary role in terms of a direct invasion of Japan. Vladivostock had been turned into a massive listening post and this, combined with NKVD agents, gave Stavka excellent intelligence on Japanese deployments.



All reports confirmed that the Northern port of Sappora was weakly defended.



The three paratroop divisions would seize the city and then regular rifle divisions would be ferried across the Sea of Japan. Soviet naval bombers would do their best to protect this force from the IJN.

Dewirix said:

That's a daring move and no mistake. I wouldn't like to be one of the paras if it turns out that Japan is better garrisoned than intelligence suggests.

Does the paradrop have an operational name?

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Operation "I really hope the NKVD are right"? Its a huge gamble as its all 3 at once (in case I need to fight once I have the city), so if there is a combat formation sat in the city I'm in trouble. The Tu-2s can reach so I can add some air support but an opposed naval invasion is asking for trouble from the IJN.