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Looking forward to it secret master let me know how it goes.

ithdraw in the first months of Barbarossa. In the latter one (INF) you can advance onward Berlin from day one.

That is true... But i build my militia for the sole perpous of Losing. They are going to lose again and again and again and again. And then eventually, they're gonna go on the offensive, where they will lose again and again and again. And then after that. they are going to walk in the Germany with no German army capable of even standing in there way.
 
That is true... But i build my militia for the sole perpous of Losing. They are going to lose again and again and again and again. And then eventually, they're gonna go on the offensive, where they will lose again and again and again. And then after that. they are going to walk in the Germany with no German army capable of even standing in there way.

Yes. It is a better role play when you first withdraw, then bleed them dry and lead your hastily recruited hordes towards Berlin. It is a better experience.

But if the fastest way of getting into Berlin is what counts here then militia based army is slower even if it is supported by better mobile units and airplanes enabled by much lower leadership cost. That is what I meant by "weaker".

Anyway, I tried this in SF. In FTM production of everything is slower so militia could be more useful. In SF it was ridiculous because I had 750 IC, 700 divs and 250 planes in 41-42. All manpower was gone in a half year of building militia and then I had to build 150 CAS which were impossible to manage efficiently (stacks per 4, huge airbases...). I like how FtM scaled the things down.

I am going to try militia based army (= no inf brigades at all) again in FtM and I think it is going to work better although probably still not better than infantry because SecretMaster proved it is still possible to get to zero manpower by building inf as SU in FtM.
 
Soviet Leadership Problem

To sum up, if you think the Soviets have too much manpower and should use it on MIL instead, you are wrong. The Soviets can burn their manpower just building regular INF. However, if you think the Soviets are hurting for leadership (especially if you enact the Purge), the MIL might make sense. The Soviets do not have an MP/IC problem. They have a Leadership problem. (And, to be perfectly honest, they are better off than some countries in that department as well, even with the Purge in effect for two years.)

This seems like faulty logic.

You have proved that not spending any leadership on officers while building units lowers the officer ratio. Yup.

And in an odd way, by choosing not to upgrade your INF, you have created an INF Army that is no better than a MIL army except that it needs 10x more officers, than a true MIL Army would have.

Trading off certain problems for other problems.....
-------
I'd actually like to see you run this experiment, and see how big an all INF army that is Fully Upgraded could be? Along with what is the best Officer ratio you could obtain?

The premise here of an IC focused USSR that will only build INF is intersting. Your research needs are so limited it should free up tons of their leadership for Officers. The Purge and Finnish war actually improve the possibilty of having enough officers nicely.
 
Mil is really bad for attacking, but is fairly good at defense. You only need to see the unit stats. Mil should not be used to attack, it should be used mainly to defend. My army that I prepare for 41, has divisions of 5 brigades (so I can use less black leaders), and has around 200 divisions of 5 Mil brigades, 60 divisions of 4 armor+1 engineer, + INT, CAS, fighters. The MIL is to defend. It is to cover ground. I can put a division in each port, all the border, and still have divisions to help the attacking army. The attacking army has combined arms bonus, hardness 33%, speed 8, width 4. Using MIL, I can put "only" 10000 leaders on the 1000 MIL brigades, and then I can use 30000 leaders on the 300 attacking brigades. The only problem comes from the HQs that is 71 HQs for the MIL+24 for the armors. 9500 leaders. With this you use the 50000 initial SU leaders, and most of the manpower. If you use all needed HQs, you use as many leaders for the Mil divisions as for the HQs.
The air units can help Mil against hard targets, but the attacking 60 armor units can also help protect the weaker parts.
Using this army with less variety of units help to have a very advanced tech in everything SU uses, making it very competitive against all other armies. (no inf tech, or art, ships, larm, harm, mech, 2 engine planes...)
 
Exhausting your MP? that cant be true... ive tried building nothing but infantry from 1936 to 1940.

Well, since this was a discussion of MP versus IC, I don't see a problem here. The previous poster indicated that he did not believe you could run the Soviets out of manpower using INF. So, I set out to demonstrate this as false.

The premise here of an IC focused USSR that will only build INF is intersting. Your research needs are so limited it should free up tons of their leadership for Officers. The Purge and Finnish war actually improve the possibilty of having enough officers nicely.

:confused:

<sigh> I'll just repeat what I said earlier again. Nowhere in this thread have I advocated a winning strategy based on INF spam. My experiment was purely to demonstrate that a human player can easily run the Soviets out of manpower without resorting to MIL. In a previous post, I even indicated that I would never build a large army consisting of 3xINF because I hate that formation and have never intentionally built it since before the release of HOI3. As far as I am concerned, 3xINF is pointless in a world where the standard division can utilize 4 brigades and where there are plenty of reasons to utilize ARTY for support. Furthermore, a pure INF army would spend a lot of time wondering why in the Hell it spend so much leadership on units that only move 4 kph when there are plenty of units that move a teeny bit faster for the same leadership cost. And since an all INF army can burn out the Soviet's manpower, there are also better units to spend the manpower on.

I finished my experiments with Combined Arms Militia. I'll post them in a bit when I get the screenshots processed.
 
This seems like faulty logic.

You have proved that not spending any leadership on officers while building units lowers the officer ratio. Yup.

And in an odd way, by choosing not to upgrade your INF, you have created an INF Army that is no better than a MIL army except that it needs 10x more officers, than a true MIL Army would have.

Trading off certain problems for other problems.....

I am not seeing the basis for your claim of SM being illogical. Perhaps I am missing something here. His test case was merely to prove that MP could indeed be burned if one singlemindedly pursued that goal. The test case also showed that with typical research priorities leadership would reach abysmal lows long before MP ran out. To me that seems to support the conclusion that he drew, i.e. that the Sovs' primary problem is not MP or IC, but rather leadership.

I'd actually like to see you run this experiment, and see how big an all INF army that is Fully Upgraded could be? Along with what is the best Officer ratio you could obtain?

The premise here of an IC focused USSR that will only build INF is intersting. Your research needs are so limited it should free up tons of their leadership for Officers. The Purge and Finnish war actually improve the possibilty of having enough officers nicely.

Any 100% unbalanced build scheme like that can make for a cake walk against the AI. Building all armor is equally unbalanced in the other direction, and is also a guaranteed romp over the AI. That is why it is widely considered an exploit.

But on a more realistic plane, where one considers viability in an MP scenario, neither of those is a workable plan. An all INF army with the singularly focused research you envision would be at a severe disadvantage to a human opponent who simply stressed armored and/or mechanized forces. Your all INF stacks' low hard attack and lack of an AT solution, either on land or in the air, would make them nothing but casualty factories whenever they faced enemy groupings with low softness numbers. You could focus just on the AT techs if you wanted to splurge just a tiny bit for those two techs, but that would make you severely gimped on the attack due to the huge attack penalty tied to AT brigades. And TDs would be pathetic without any tank research to provide their stat boosts.

So such an experiment might yield an interesting few numbers for the basis of comparisons in a purely academic way. But they would not, IMO, provide any real world basis for advocating such a build scheme in a real game, except for those who like to employ exploits.
 
This seems like faulty logic.

You have proved that not spending any leadership on officers while building units lowers the officer ratio. Yup.

And in an odd way, by choosing not to upgrade your INF, you have created an INF Army that is no better than a MIL army except that it needs 10x more officers, than a true MIL Army would have.

Trading off certain problems for other problems.....
-------
I'd actually like to see you run this experiment, and see how big an all INF army that is Fully Upgraded could be? Along with what is the best Officer ratio you could obtain?

The premise here of an IC focused USSR that will only build INF is intersting. Your research needs are so limited it should free up tons of their leadership for Officers. The Purge and Finnish war actually improve the possibilty of having enough officers nicely.

The point Secret Master made is that USSR has more than enough IC to put all its manpower into infantry. He did not argue that doing so is a good idea, he just did it to prove the point. IC cost is not a significant advantage of militia. Leadership cost is.

Also, burning through all manpower is a bad idea. Casualties will be enormous once the war starts and a reserve is needed for reinforcements. If all manpower is put in field, one will end up with understrength brigades taking up frontage, supplies and officers.

EDIT: Emu'd by Secret Master ;)
 
A Brief Exposition on Combined Arms Militia

Heavy_Inertial_Cannon.png


The Official Motto of the Red Army’s Elite Combined Arms Militia:

“Be right there!”

Given the savings in leadership for using MIL, and given that any division can enjoy the CA bonus if it has the right composition, I decided to test the value of using MIL as a meat shield in divisions that are combined arms. MIL would be the cheapest meatshield for expensive support brigades in terms of leadership, IC, and even manpower. But would it really work?

I. What units to use?

MIL benefits from technologies that reduce width. It also benefits from a technology that reduces the stacking penalty a bit. With 2xMIL, a division would have a width of 1. You could stack up to 10 divisions in a province for an attack or defense (one province attack direction), although even with the reduction in stacking penalties, they are still pretty severe at that point. Thus, you could hypothetically build a 1xMIL division with 3 support brigades, but it would be pointless because you cannot take full advantage of a division with only 0.5 width because the stacking penalties for getting enough divisions in the province to meet the maximum width are ridiculous.

You could avoid the research for reduced MIL width, but there are advantages to stacking more than 5 divisions in an attack, even if you don't put in enough to get to the width limit. And since you are researching a bunch of other MIL techs anyway, the cost is negligible.

2xMIL appears to be the optimum if you are looking for support brigades. But which ones? To get the CA bonus, you need either 2xTD or 2xSHARM.

HoI3_55.jpg


HoI3_56.jpg


TD is available to the Soviets in 36, but SHARM is a long ways away. In preparation for war, I chose to utilize 2xMIL/2xTD as a combined arms formation (64% softness).

There might be other ways to get the CA bonus, but TDs and SHARM will add some HA to the formation. Remember that MIL has terrible HA, even when upgraded properly. There’s no point in using MIL as a meatshield if tanks will simply push them aside because of their inability to inflict any damage on armored units.

II. Build up to war

Ran my standard set up for 36 and 37. Build IC until late 37, trade for supplies, raise threat on Finland, Romania, and Poland, and make sure to research required techs. No leadership is spent on officers or influence. No IC spent upgrades or reinforcement. Once I get new divisions built, I will just delete the old INF; I need to keep them until I conquer Finland, Romania, and Poland.

In January of 37, enact the Great Purge.

In 38, I start a construction program consisting only of 2xMIL, 2xTD. By 38, TDs and MIL have decent techs by now, so I don’t have to worry quite as much about improving their tech. MIL uses militia practical, and TDs utilize artillery practical. This means that the techs TDs use from armored tech line are harder to research than the firepower upgrades, but that’s ok. We’ll get armor practical later in life.

In April 38, puppet Finland.

In late 38, puppet Romania. Then annex Poland.

In 39, Germany will still offer the MR pact despite Poland being annexed. :wacko: Poland will reappear in Ostrava. I accept the MR pact.

By 1940, we have deleted all of the INF and replaced the divisions with the new divisions. We are past the Great Army point.

By August of 1940, it is time to upgrade units. The upgrade cost of these new divisions is very expensive in terms of IC, mainly because the TDs need a lot of upgrades. Production winds down as upgrades take priority.

By August of 1940, we have the ability to build HARM. All CAV and LARM begin to be upgraded to HARM. We have several divisions with HARM in them for use in situations that require heavy firepower.

The Germans declare war in November of 1941. By the time they do it, every single province facing Germany has a minimum of 3 divisions. There are 7 stacks of 5 divisions stationed as strategic reserves in various places. Bear in mind, the Germans own Konigsberg and I own Danzig, so the front is very long, and it includes Slovakia and Hungary.

IV. The War.

Within two months, we have already eliminated the Konigsberg pocket.

HoI3_49.jpg


By February, we have taken Berlin.

HoI3_54.jpg


Within a few months, we have taken most of German’s IC and have puppeted Hungary. There is no real way for Germany to recover at this point and I end the game.

Bear in mind that because I screwed up my production in 1940, the Soviet airforce barely exists. The Germans have total air supremacy even as I slowly push them. With that in mind, combined arms militia seems to have strategic value. We won the war, so it’s not like there is a serious flaw in the unit.

V. Performance analysis

Building MIL/TD divisions takes more time than you might expect. The TDs lengthen the time taken to build the division, and TDs themselves are not cheap. However, there are only two practicals at play: militia and artillery. Even without building a single reserve division, I was easily able to build a huge army using this unit. However, since the building times are more lengthy than just regular MIL, you have to plan ahead a bit more than you might otherwise. Plain MIL builds so quickly that you can spam them in a pinch; you can’t expect the same kind of build process when building combined arms militia.

When utilizing the Combined Arms Warfare doctrine, having an army entirely composed of CA units, even when their initial values are not that great, is very powerful. Every division starts at +30% efficiency before we even talk about terrain, leaders, or weather. Combining the CA bonus with MIL divisions that have low widths and low costs resulted in units that never fight alone or even in pairs. Almost all combats involve at least 6 divisions, sometimes more. There are stacking penalties, but the CA bonus makes up for them up to the point where you run out of width. If you really want to stack firepower in a province, the CA bonus lets you get away with it far more than you might otherwise expect. The CA bonus meshes well with militia doctrines, even if you have to research something from Superior Firepower in order to maximize the benefit. In other words, lowering the width of militia divisions actually works best in a CA environment.

In combat, my divisions were by and large victorious. Since the division contains TDs, it suffers from the same problems any armored unit would have with terrain. In a setting where you would be having a wide variety of units, you have to treat MIL/TD like it is an armored unit. Attacking across rivers is generally pointless. Attacking into mountains is pointless. In open terrain, however, it owns anything the AI has. While the division does not enjoy as much SA when compared to INF/ARTY, it has plenty of HA, making up for MILs pathetic HA. Armored units cannot push aside this division like they can MIL by itself. As for SA, individually the division lacks enough SA, but you can stack plenty of firepower in a single combat thanks to doctrines in order to overwhelm INF/ARTY divisions. Furthermore, INF/ARTY divisions emphasize soft attacks, which are not quite as useful against a 65% soft unit as they would be against a division of MIL.

Divisions utilizing MIL have less overall ORG, even when the officer ratio is at 140%. Furthermore, MIL has less morale, slowing the regeneration of ORG. In extended combats, rotating divisions is more important with a MIL based army than an INF based army. Since you have more divisions at work, this is just a question of the player managing units. Also, the cost in officers for the amount of ORG each kind of unit has means that MIL is much more efficient in leadership than it may appear. A MIL brigade with 1942 techs has 30 ORG for 10 officers while an INF brigade has 55 ORG for 100 officers. Utilizing 1942 techs, the MIL division generates over 5 times as much ORG per officer than INF, but individual INF divisions can outlast individual MIL in extended combats.

However, the lower ORG of MIL based divisions is where doctrines and MIL don’t mix as well. The AD doctrine is in the Human Wave category, which might indicate that it should work very well with MIL units; however, MIL/TD divisions burn through their ORG faster than INF, so AD is not as big a deal once you get past a 96 hour reduction in AD. MIL/TD divisions require rotation to be useful anyway thanks to lower ORG, so there is no point trying to lower AD too far.

But if lower ORG requires a rethinking of AD, there is a fundamental issue that requires even more consideration. MIL/TD divisions are VERY slow. On the plus side, there is no point in researching medium tank engines past whatever point you need for other units. You can also load up on all the armor you want for the TDs, confident that speed reductions are nothing to worry about. Yet, the low speed of these divisions carries with it a host of unpleasant consequences. First, they can’t advance into enemy territory with any real speed. Forget about taking any important terrain quickly. You can defeat enemy divisions and they will be replaced by other divisions before you can enter the province. On defense, MIL/TD divisions have a hard time responding tactically to concerted enemy attacks. Even when a MIL/TD is one province away from a stack that needs assistance, you have to SR to get there in a reasonable amount of time. And if some of your divisions get cut off for whatever reason, you can forget rescuing them if you don’t have something fast. The slow speed of MIL makes it unsuitable for any kind of mobile campaign; if you want speed, you cannot make significant use of MIL, even to react tactically to counter attacks.

None of these issues are too surprising. There was, however, one recurring issue that surprised me. MIL is cheap in terms of IC, manpower, and leadership. It is so cheap that if you look at the screenshots, you will see that I have more manpower than I could ever possibly use. TDs themselves use less manpower than INF, so I will never run out of manpower utilizing MIL in this way. However, for the entire length of the war, I was spending at least 30 IC, and never less than 20 IC a day on reinforcements. Normally, reinforcement costs go up and down during a war. When a major offensive ends, costs shoot up until I get everything repaired, and then they go back down. But with MIL/TD divisions, the cost just kept creeping up. I was mystified as to how cheap MIL could cost so much to repair. But the truth was revealed when I examined the stats of the division. Look at them again.

HoI3_55.jpg


The toughness of the division is really low. While toughness rates vary by tech, INF has about 5 times as much toughness at 1942 tech levels compared to MIL. But toughness is dealt with at the division level, not brigade level. The TDs add some toughness, but the overall division has substantial deficits in this area. This would not be a big deal if the division was solely composed of MIL; MIL is cheap. But the TDs, even with 50% artillery practical, are very expensive. The division’s lower toughness means that every time this division attacks, it takes much more damage. The manpower cost is negligible; the Germans will never bleed me white because both MIL and TDs utilize very little manpower. But the IC cost gets expensive because I am paying to repair the TDs. Because losses apply to the entire division, and because the entire division shares toughness, MIL is poor meatshield for the TDs when the division attacks. The MIL itself takes little effort to repair, but the TDs equally share in all damage, raising the cost of repairs substantially.

This deficiency in terms of toughness is not a deal breaker, but it raises some serious questions for long-term warfare. I overran the Germans without too much effort, so the war did not last too long. But if the war dragged on for years, we might ask ourselves whether sustained offensive operations become IC inefficient due to reinforcement costs. MIL by themselves are not really that great at offense, but they don’t cover their support brigades on offense very well either. In a situation where IC might be harder to come by, stacking MIL with expensive units might be a losing strategy in terms of repairing the support brigades, unless you primarily put such divisions on defensive duties.

VI. Final Thoughts

The leadership savings of MIL versus INF are substantial. While MIL has lower firepower in all regards compared to INF, the leadership savings means you can have more MIL than INF. In most ways, you can make up for MIL’s deficiencies by just making more. However, there two areas where more MIL do not make up these deficiencies: toughness and speed. The lack of toughness means that support brigades are going to get hurt a lot more on offense, resulting in more IC spent in reinforcements. In terms of speed, there is no way to make up for this deficiency at all. It might not seem like much, but a 25% slower speed is a big deal in many circumstances. Even utilizing other fast units, the slowness of an army based largely on MIL means that your enemies can outmaneuver you without much effort. The AI is easy to deal with, but against a human player who is serious about maneuvering, you would face some difficulties doing anything other than slogging forward.

MIL’s lack of HA is irrelevant on most cases. If you think you need MIL to fight against armor of any kind, just attach AT/TD. Researching anti-tank weapons for MIL is pointless; I researched it just for completeness in my game, but considering unit composition and the pathetic HA from that tech, it was a waste of research (we might ask why their HA is so low, since you are equipping troops with weapons similar to INF, but the combat performance is so radically different).

MIL does not consume that much manpower. I had a number of battles where I suffered 50,000 or more casualties, but the manpower cost was never significant. Players should never think of MIL as a manpower-intensive unit. MIL divisions with support brigades use even less manpower. If you spam MIL based divisions with support brigades, manpower won’t be an issue (but reinforcement costs might be).

In conclusion, CA MIL divisions have some real advantages. The CA bonus helps mitigate the stacking penalty even more than doctrines will, resulting in more firepower you can apply per battle due to reduced widths. The cost in terms of manpower is negligible, the cost in terms of IC is meh once artillery practicals are in play for the TDs, and the cost in terms of leadership is attractive. However, the offensive potential for this type of unit requires a trade off in terms of speed and reinforcement cost, coupled with the poor terrain bonuses inherent in any divisions utilizing TDs. Instead of using such units on large scale offensive operations, they might best be used to plug gaps and defend critical points. When the Germans attacked Danzig in the opening hours of the war, they got completely owned by the MIL/TD divisions sitting in defense in the city. It wasn’t even close.
 
What about a 2XMIL 2XHARM division? They will have width of 3, though they will probably have same problem with toughness...
 
What about a 2XMIL 2XHARM division? They will have width of 3, though they will probably have same problem with toughness...

I would think 2xMIL 2xSHARM would make more sense, as the width would then remain only 1, thereby allowing you to still balance the stacking penalty against the CA bonus and bring more divisions to bear in a battle. Also, the relative speeds are a wash at 3kph, the div would get lower softness at 52% and the MP cost would remain very low since the SHARM is still a support brigade. OTOH, the fuel expense is rather obscene at 11, which makes the 2xMIL 2xTD divs fuel consumption of 2.30 a major bargain by comparison. But the HARM fuel consumption is also obscene, so that is not a nod to the HARM formula.
 
This time Secret Master i feel i have some pretty good arguments... please read. :)

If i played to win from the very start (even on Very Hard) as the SU i could Take on Japan by 1937 by guaranteeing the borders of Sinkiang or what ever its called (I have done this before in FTM 3.05) I Could puppet Finland and Sweden, Annex Poland, Annex Romania and Yugoslavia, Annex Persia and Afganistan, declare war on UK and take India. And completely steamroll the Germans and then take all of France.

The SU is ridiculously overpowered when controlled by a human. I think its the most powerful in the game. . . but i may be wrong.

I try to play a historically plausible game when i play as the SU. Because they are already so powerful as a human, playing to win from the start is really just plain boring. They stand no chance of losing.

I constantly spend IC on upgrading my units, even though it takes away from production.

(after all... in real life no army is gonna never upgrade its Army and wait until the last second to upgrade everything all at once It doesn't make sense... and it would never actually work... You dont Upgrade WWI guns to late WWII guns... in real life you have to build new guns they dont upgrade!)

so i think that is just ridiculous and very gameyish.

Plain MIL builds so quickly that you can spam them in a pinch; you can’t expect the same kind of build process when building combined arms militia
MIL/TD divisions are VERY slow
Even when a MIL/TD is one province away from a stack that needs assistance, you have to SR to get there in a reasonable amount of time
The slow speed of MIL makes it unsuitable for any kind of mobile campaign; if you want speed, you cannot make significant use of MIL, even to react tactically to counter attacks.
stacking MIL with expensive units might be a losing strategy in terms of repairing the support brigades, unless you primarily put such divisions on defensive dutie

Why would you build miltia/TDs at once in a single a division? the whole point of my militia strategy is to be able to build more and wear down organization... at least build Militia and then TD's and then later combine them? even if not all militia divisons get the TD's... again the thing ive been arguing this whole time is organization...(more divisions)

But... why would you attach a very slow division with a decently fast division in the first place? Why not build many many militia and then build a completely mobile force?
Witch makes use of militia. in there Low time to build, IC used, and leadership. You can build a very large mobile force. And build more militia than you could infantry.

Divisions utilizing MIL have less overall ORG, even when the officer ratio is at 140%. Furthermore, MIL has less morale, slowing the regeneration of ORG

I research my Militia doctrines ORG/Moral doctrines way ahead of anything the AI can for infantry. My militia Actually almost match the AI infantry when it comes to organization, by the organization of the divisions, not the number of divisions.

In extended combats, rotating divisions is more important with a MIL based army than an INF based army.
Also, the cost in officers for the amount of ORG each kind of unit has means that MIL is much more efficient in leadership than it may appear. A MIL brigade with 1942 techs has 30 ORG for 10 officers while an INF brigade has 55 ORG for 100 officers. Utilizing 1942 techs, the MIL division generates over 5 times as much ORG per officer than INF, but individual INF divisions can outlast individual MIL in extended combats.

Exactly. And in sticky situations. i intend to utilize this. Infantry may outlast my Militia, but i will keep rotating them in and out with massive numerical superiority. I will never run low on organization.

you will see that I have more manpower than I could ever possibly use
Players should never think of MIL as a manpower-intensive unit

Thats what ive been saying this whole time dude =D. You can build way more, way faster, With less/more efficient leadership, less manpower used, and with nearly the same divisional organization when you focus heavily on researching the moral/org doctrines. This is my point exactly with my argument in Militia being completely overpowered as SU.

I was mystified as to how cheap MIL could cost so much to repair. But the truth was revealed when I examined the stats of the division. Look at them again.

But again as you said.. you have more MP than you can ever possibly use. You will NOT run out. Even with the rising cost of militia reinforcements. And when i intend to make any real progress, i use my mobile forces... NO militia involved in them,

However, there two areas where more MIL do not make up these deficiencies: toughness and speed

and i can build more mobile units too with the cheap cost of militia.


P.S. Secret master. I have enjoyed are arguments/conversations about this, and i have alot of respect towards you for your going out of your way to find out things for sure explaining them in depth, and not being biased towards one particular strategy. I hope you dont feel im talking down to you in anyway. Also you have helped me realize quite a bit of things in terms of gameplay and strategies.
 
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So...

What I said initially was spot on, based on these AARs you are making.

MIL is good for low-leadership countries, as long as you don't use them like INF. Either Human-wave them for casualty attrition, or use them as cannon fodder for support units, and nothing else.




That 2nd AAR makes me think SU could be even MORE formidable with a slight alteration though. Imagine this:

1 full corp per province
6 divisions:
2 of 2xMIL 3xTD (or 3xAT)
3 of 2xMIL 3xART
1 of 2xMIL 1xHQ 2xAA


Then just have, corps by corps, marching in whatever direction you want, with nearby corps support-attacking to fill width as desired. (And a few similar Corps 1 province behind for troop rotation, of course).

should be the same result you got with the all MIL-TD test, but far more effective against anyone who is not 95% ARM units ;p
 
There is one other important use for MIL units, which has been overlooked. They're ideal for taking, moving through, and pacifying extremely low-infra provinces, without the usual supply problems. In spite of the slight speed reduction, they're great in places like Africa or some of the SE Asian jungles and other inhospitable regions. Of course, I wouldn't want to use them in combat against line infantry units if I don't have to, but that's not what they're there for.

I use occasional GAR units to hold ports, and for a few key cities in occupied territory. They won't withstand a determined attack for long, but they're sufficient to delay that attack, or repel stray rebel units that spawn in the vicinity. You need a mobile force to reinforce the port or run down the rebels, but one mobile divison and 3 or 4 Garrsion units are rather cost-effective compared to stationing regular INF all over the place.
 
You've only proven that CA is overpowered - and too easy to achieve with silliest combinations of units... In that unbeatable for AI all-CA strategy Inf would have done much better because it has 5x the toughness. Not even talking about Mech+TD which is just nuts when you overrun enemy army and then run for his VPs at 11kph.
 
What about a 2XMIL 2XHARM division? They will have width of 3, though they will probably have same problem with toughness...

I would think 2xMIL 2xSHARM would make more sense, as the width would then remain only 1, thereby allowing you to still balance the stacking penalty against the CA bonus and bring more divisions to bear in a battle. Also, the relative speeds are a wash at 3kph, the div would get lower softness at 52% and the MP cost would remain very low since the SHARM is still a support brigade. OTOH, the fuel expense is rather obscene at 11, which makes the 2xMIL 2xTD divs fuel consumption of 2.30 a major bargain by comparison. But the HARM fuel consumption is also obscene, so that is not a nod to the HARM formula.

I agree. I did employ a few MIL/SHARM divisions before I quit, but I found that the performance increase was negligible with level 1 SHARM techs and the supply and fuel cost was absurd given the division's firepower.

I think that SHARM is pointless anyway, and I think that HARM has better things to do than absorb damage meant for MIL. Paying to repair TDs was bad enough. :)

This time Secret Master i feel i have some pretty good arguments... please read. :)

If i played to win from the very start (even on Very Hard) as the SU i could Take on Japan by 1937 by guaranteeing the borders of Sinkiang or what ever its called (I have done this before in FTM 3.05) I Could puppet Finland and Sweden, Annex Poland, Annex Romania and Yugoslavia, Annex Persia and Afganistan, declare war on UK and take India. And completely steamroll the Germans and then take all of France.

The SU is ridiculously overpowered when controlled by a human. I think its the most powerful in the game. . . but i may be wrong.

No argument from me. I think it is historically accurate, too. There's a reason that the Soviets and the USA ended up as the big players after the war.

I try to play a historically plausible game when i play as the SU. Because they are already so powerful as a human, playing to win from the start is really just plain boring. They stand no chance of losing.

I constantly spend IC on upgrading my units, even though it takes away from production.

(after all... in real life no army is gonna never upgrade its Army and wait until the last second to upgrade everything all at once It doesn't make sense... and it would never actually work... You dont Upgrade WWI guns to late WWII guns... in real life you have to build new guns they dont upgrade!)

so i think that is just ridiculous and very gameyish.

Oh, I do, too. The point of my exercise was to illustrate the use of MIL in a different environment. Another poster indicated he was interested when I said I would experiment with MIL in a CA setting, so I thought I would write it up. The results were illuminating, though I would not want to win this way. It's boring moving super stacks of MIL/TD around to just bludgeon the Germans to death. :)




Why would you build miltia/TDs at once in a single a division? the whole point of my militia strategy is to be able to build more and wear down organization... at least build Militia and then TD's and then later combine them? even if not all militia divisons get the TD's... again the thing ive been arguing this whole time is organization...(more divisions)

But... why would you attach a very slow division with a decently fast division in the first place?

Just to test the effectiveness of MIL in a CA situation. You're right; it is silly to attack medium speed TDs to the absurdly slow MIL. Hence the opening graphic of a turtle with guns attached. (Which I stole from SOTS, by the way. :) )

I research my Militia doctrines ORG/Moral doctrines way ahead of anything the AI can for infantry. My militia Actually almost match the AI infantry when it comes to organization, by the organization of the divisions, not the number of divisions.

A sound strategy, since MIL practical is so easy to build up if you just build them by themselves.

Thats what ive been saying this whole time dude =D. You can build way more, way faster, With less/more efficient leadership, less manpower used, and with nearly the same divisional organization when you focus heavily on researching the moral/org doctrines. This is my point exactly with my argument in Militia being completely overpowered as SU.

I'm not sure MIL are by themselves overpowered as the Soviets, but my analysis concurs with other things you have said. (The Soviets themselves are way more powerful than some players give them credit for being.)



But again as you said.. you have more MP than you can ever possibly use. You will NOT run out. Even with the rising cost of militia reinforcements. And when i intend to make any real progress, i use my mobile forces... NO militia involved in them,

I agree again. My analysis clearly shows that the slowness of militia makes any kind of maneuver warfare pointless if the MIL are going on offense. They are too slow; but in a real game, there is nothing stopping you from using mobile forces to spearhead offensives, leaving MIL to hold key defensive objectives and to pin down the line.


P.S. Secret master. I have enjoyed are arguments/conversations about this, and i have alot of respect towards you for your going out of your way to find out things for sure explaining them in depth, and not being biased towards one particular strategy. I hope you dont feel im talking down to you in anyway. Also you have helped me realize quite a bit of things in terms of gameplay and strategies.

It doesn't hurt my feelings. I think my analysis bears out most of what you say. MIL represent a savings in terms of certain resources, but they perform certain tasks poorly. :cool:

So...

What I said initially was spot on, based on these AARs you are making.

MIL is good for low-leadership countries, as long as you don't use them like INF. Either Human-wave them for casualty attrition, or use them as cannon fodder for support units, and nothing else.

I would modify it and say that they are suitable to casualty attrition warfare on defense. On offense, their performance as a meatshield for support brigades drops substantially, as the entire division takes more losses due to low toughness, meaning that you spend a lot of IC repairing expensive support brigades.

That 2nd AAR makes me think SU could be even MORE formidable with a slight alteration though. Imagine this:

1 full corp per province
6 divisions:
2 of 2xMIL 3xTD (or 3xAT)
3 of 2xMIL 3xART
1 of 2xMIL 1xHQ 2xAA

should be the same result you got with the all MIL-TD test, but far more effective against anyone who is not 95% ARM units ;p

Well, I would say that those combinations would perform better against soft targets, but they lose the CA bonus, which I used to offset the stacking penalties, which were incurred from putting many divisions with tiny width in the same combat. You'd have to run the numbers to see if the loss of +30% efficiency for CA is worth the added soft attack from the ART.

There is one other important use for MIL units, which has been overlooked. They're ideal for taking, moving through, and pacifying extremely low-infra provinces, without the usual supply problems. In spite of the slight speed reduction, they're great in places like Africa or some of the SE Asian jungles and other inhospitable regions. Of course, I wouldn't want to use them in combat against line infantry units if I don't have to, but that's not what they're there for.

Their low supply cost helps in this regard, but I find that in bad terrain like Africa an Asia, MAR and MTN perform better. They are harder to supply, but the divisions in question fight so much better thanks to terrain bonuses. MIL get eaten alive by MTN in the right terrain, and remember that MAR get bonuses in jungles and when crossing rivers. Plenty of both in the hinterlands of Asia.

You've only proven that CA is overpowered - and too easy to achieve with silliest combinations of units...

Well, I don't think I was 'proving' anything. Just showing some results. :) But, part of me agrees that it is silly to get a CA bonus when you combine fast TDs with militia. I mean, what kind of combined warfare is going on? The MIL wanders around randomly attacking targets in asymmetrical fashion while the TD portion of the division conducts armored assaults? :wacko:

In that unbeatable for AI all-CA strategy Inf would have done much better because it has 5x the toughness.

I think the analysis bears that out. I point out specifically that the low toughness of MIL carries with it substantial consequences. In essence, in HOI3, what distinguishes MIL from INF is not SA, but toughness and lack of HA. If you want to use less leadership, be prepared to accept the consequences on offense. Note that with FtM fixing the toughness bug, this is a real issue to consider these days.

For me, this indicates that countries that have plenty of IC, but are low on manpower and leadership, are the only countries that benefit from a MIL/TD approach. I can't think of any country offhand that lacks both leadership and manpower, but has the IC to throw around spamming TD attachments for MIL. The Soviets can certainly afford to do better.

Not even talking about Mech+TD which is just nuts when you overrun enemy army and then run for his VPs at 11kph.

And you are right again. Using MIL in the way I did is not about conducting complicated offensive operations. It's about moving large stacks into opposing provinces and just shooting at the enemy until he breaks. With any luck, the enemy can only block your advance into the opposing province twice after the initial victory due to your absurdly slow speed. :)

In fact, MIL/TD is the exact opposite of good mobile warfare. It is slow, it depends on large numbers of divisions in a small area trying to concentrate their firepower, and it depends on the enemy having no where else to go.

Using MIL/TD to conquer Germany is like trying to murder someone with a slow moving woodchipper. You can murder someone in several ways. You can shoot them, or stab them, of you can slowly chase them around the room with a woodchipper. You can eventually kill them with the woodchipper, but as long as they can keep getting out of the way, you will never finish them off. And when you finally catch them, you will create a big mess doing so.


I will say that the Devs must have given some thought to bizarre MIL combinations, because the lack of toughness is something you don't really notice until you are fighting for awhile. But it is a good way to balance the unit.
 
Wow, Secret Master, I am very impressed. You have convinced me to go for a game as the Soviet Union, I think I won't be slaughtered now, ha.

By the way, do you build any Infrastructure at all, or just IC factories?

Also, does it make a difference if you build the Militia units and Tank Destroyers separately so you can deploy the MIL faster? Just curious.
 
do you build any Infrastructure at all

You want to at least build a "green" pipe towards Siberia so your troops in China don't get stuck in 1945. It doesn't hurt to upgrade all over though, especially pipe towards all other majors fronts.
 
But, part of me agrees that it is silly to get a CA bonus when you combine fast TDs with militia. I mean, what kind of combined warfare is going on?

Presumably the militia are protecting the TDs from enemy infantry, and the TDs are protecting the militia from enemy tanks and blowing up strongpoints, just as would happen with regular infantry. MIL are just infantry without much training, drawn from classes other than the usual young-adult-males that make up regular conscript infantry, right? So they're infantry but bad at it. They still perform whatever functions infantry do.
 
By the way, do you build any Infrastructure at all, or just IC factories?

Normally, I build infrastructure after my IC builds. It keeps practical up, the infrastructure is cheap when you high construction practicals.

Here is an example of my infrastructure building. I must warn you, I am an infrastructure whore, and I probably over do it. But if you look at the picture, you will see a main artery going off towards the east. That's the trans-Siberian railway, upgraded to level 8. In Europe, I build 4 arteries emanating from Moscow, and linking up various IC centers to the better infrastructure in Western Europe. This keeps the Soviet army supplied as they hit the Rhine. Bad infrastructure in your cores (where your IC makes the supplies) will make it hard for those supplies to get to the front, even if the front is in an area where there is good infrastructure.

HoI3_3.jpg



In this game, I had war goals that included Turkey and China/Korea, so I build up some supply arteries to support operations in those directions. That's why you see a pipeline heading into the mountains towards the southeast. There's no Germans there, but Turkey needed to be conquered, so it got a supply artery.

You'll notice that every place I conquered or puppeted had at least one path of nice infrastructure leading to it.


Also, does it make a difference if you build the Militia units and Tank Destroyers separately so you can deploy the MIL faster? Just curious.

Only if you want MIL sitting around without their attachments. The game seems to consolidate the division into IC days and spreads it out accordingly. You still have to wait 180 days or so without practicals for the unit to build (thanks to TDs), but the MIL cost is spread out across those days, so the MIL isn't more expensive. But you have from 36 to 41, so the time is not a big deal. Just don't delete INF until you can replace them.

Still, I would not advocate this strategy in a normal game. It is kind of boring, and the method of fighting is one that favors smashing units into the enemy with little thought. It won't tax your brain to fight the war like this.