Clarification on 25 tile modding | REPOST

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TotalyMoo

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Greetings community!

Due to a moderation mishap I'm reposting this thread.

It seems like we've failed in communicating with you, which has created a misunderstanding about how easy it is to mod the game outside the supported 9 tiles. There's a series of things that has let this happen, some from our end and others via YouTubers like Arumba and journalists that attended PDXCON. Alas, when it comes down to it we're to blame here as we have not been clear enough in the difficulty levels of doing such a mod.

Basically;

* We knew that unlocking more than 9 tiles is possible via modding.

* As details about modding were not public yet, we assumed that possible would not imply easy. This was not the interpretation of most people, community and journalists alike. As we all know, assumption is the mother of all f*ckups.

* An initial reply by Shams in our first AMA 6 months back led users to believe it was a "checkbox" option (this has been previously rectified, though)

* Modding to 25 tiles is possible. It's not easy, it requires skill, but it is possible.

Mariina gave a statement about this yesterday.

"I apologize for the confusion. We at CO have been trying to be very clear on the fact that we do not support bigger map size than the 9 that is offered as default. It is possible to unlock more tiles as co_damsku described in Reddit, which sounds like cracking the game to me, but I'm not a programmer. This is however not easy and again, we at Colossal can't help you with this unfortunately. We feel the 9 map tiles is plenty of room to build the city in and going over that causes multiple issues.

It seems that I have failed in the communication. We were asked if unlocking more than 9 map tiles is possible to which we answered that we will not officially support it as it is dangerous in terms of performance and can cause multiple other issues. But indeed, it it possible yet very very difficult. I believe some people picked only the "it is possible" part, which I should have more actively tried to correct, but I didn't take the time. I'm very sorry for that and any false expectations that have risen due to this."


Damien, programmer at CO, has this to say.

"Unlocking additional map tiles is not just about increasing the number of tiles available. There is need to deal with the unlocking logic, the indexing, the area limitations, calculating the available resources and most likely many other things I am not thinking about right now. Some of these systems are part of the core foundation of the game and rely on very specific data structures, many of which are not intuitive nor logical in favour of performances. So unlocking more tiles would require to hijack some of those systems to replace them by your own which will deal with the criteria above. So while theoretically possible, in practice it will require some reverse engineering, a bulletproof patience and some pretty intense modding swag."


Tl;dr: We're very sorry for not being clear enough on this and understand your frustration. This was a mistake in communication from our end. We will strive to better ourselves.

Thank you for reading!


Best,
John
 
So if I read correctly, a mod that would enable the 25 tiles (or even just a 10th), would need to increase the available space to buy (easy part) but would then have to handle additional parts which might be very very tricky.

Thus if such mod goes out, there is a high risk that some part will be broken and have unexpected effect.
But with clever modding action it could be possible but need to be correctly made within many elements.

The thing I'm now wondering is how much information about what might be the function to replace would be provided to the modders?
Thus if it would be a guess and try game or if we could have a bit of information for it (only asking for main entry, not support)
 
Thanks for the clarification. I do think before everyone gets all upset with this that they actually play the game and fully fill in 9 tiles and see how that goes. Give it a couple goes to a full city filling the 9 tiles and see how it feels. I'm sure it will be plenty huge, at least from what I've see in preview videos, but we won't know until release. We certainly know it's a lot larger then any other city building in recent memory and CO has stated above 9 there will be performance issues.

Modders will be on top of it to try to unlock more tiles and there is already a thread in the modding forum to do just that: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ouncing-Project-25-Mod-to-Unlock-all-25-tiles

And who knows, 6 months from now after release CO may have optimized the game to a point where they might be able to unlock a few more tiles, say to 12 or something default in the game. Who knows what the future holds, but I certainly won't let something like "oh my g*d I cants do 25 tiles day one this suxors" ruin what looks to be a fantastic game.
 
GUYS!
I have feeling people will never be happy with what they get in this genre!
The game was not even released yet and many of you are thinking how to unlock 25 tiles... seriously? 9 and 25 is huge difference, I am not programmer and dont understand these things but I can imagine how many calculation processes in simulation would increase and who's computer would be able to handle that?
Isn't it better to have 9 great working tiles instead 25 nearly unplayable? I think 9 is enough to create city big enough and enjoy the game. Let's be happy for what we get and don't lead it to the extremes omg!

DEAR DEVELOPERS! Thank you for ur amazing work u r putting into this game, I've preordered Deluxe Edition and I'm dying to enjoy what you've made for us and cannot wait for further developement - I hope you will be updating and keeping this game alive for a long time in the future! I trully appreciate ur fair play towards all of us in every aspect!
 
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GUYS!
I have feeling people will never be happy with what they get in this gender!
The game was not even released yet and many of you are thinking how to unlock 25 tiles... seriously? 9 and 25 is huge difference, I am not programmer and dont understand these things but I can imagine how many calculation processes in simulation would increase and who's computer would be able to handle that?
Isn't it better to have 9 great working tiles instead 25 nearly unplayable? I think 9 is enough to create city big enough and enjoy the game. Let's be happy for what we get and don't lead it to the extremes omg!

DEAR DEVELOPERS! Thank you for ur amazing work u r putting into this game, I've preordered Deluxe Edition and I'm dying to enjoy what you've made for us and cannot wait for further developement - I hope you will be updating and keeping this game alive for a long time in the future! I trully appreciate ur fair play towards all of us in every aspect!

I agree.

Although I think you mean Genre and not Gender :)

Mind you if you were talking about me you could be right, no woman has been happy with me :(
 
So unlocking more tiles would require to hijack some of those systems to replace them by your own which will deal with the criteria above. So while theoretically possible, in practice it will require some reverse engineering, a bulletproof patience and some pretty intense modding swag.

This line interests me. So far, the reply has been about ability, but what I'm wondering is permissibility.

Modding the tiles to 25 is possible, but is it allowed by Paradox and Colossal Order as a company? This is because that last line about reverse engineering might mean breaking into the hard codes of the game ....
 
This type of communication to the fan base is the reason I pre-ordered. It's refreshing to see a company say "oops we missed our mark on this" and clear the air. You may not like the answer but its honest - which is what counts in the end.
 
This line interests me. So far, the reply has been about ability, but what I'm wondering is permissibility.

Modding the tiles to 25 is possible, but is it allowed by Paradox and Colossal Order as a company? This is because that last line about reverse engineering might mean breaking into the hard codes of the game ....

If people wish to break this limit we will not try to prevent them.
 
Indeed a clever bunch.

53630139.jpg
 
GUYS!
I have feeling people will never be happy with what they get in this genre!
The game was not even released yet and many of you are thinking how to unlock 25 tiles... seriously? 9 and 25 is huge difference, I am not programmer and dont understand these things but I can imagine how many calculation processes in simulation would increase and who's computer would be able to handle that?
Isn't it better to have 9 great working tiles instead 25 nearly unplayable? I think 9 is enough to create city big enough and enjoy the game. Let's be happy for what we get and don't lead it to the extremes omg!

DEAR DEVELOPERS! Thank you for ur amazing work u r putting into this game, I've preordered Deluxe Edition and I'm dying to enjoy what you've made for us and cannot wait for further developement - I hope you will be updating and keeping this game alive for a long time in the future! I trully appreciate ur fair play towards all of us in every aspect!

Yes, I agree. We haven't even played the game yet, and people are asking to unlock all the tiles? Geez...
 
I agree too.
People just think they need 25 tiles. I don't think they realize just how big 9 tiles is... but they will once they play it.

From the videos/screenshots we've seen of the game, as well as previous experience from other games, I think people can come up with an idea of how big the map will be. Take the city we saw in the livestream from PDX CON as an example. It used used up 7 of the 9 tiles, and while it was big, it wasn't that big.

The maps in Cities XL are 110km2, and I can visualize how big cities were in that game. The maps in Cities in Motion 2 were 64km2, and I can visualize how big cities were in that game. I think it's fair to say we have some idea of what 36km2 will feel like.
 
All the developer cities have been poorly made in terms of space utilisation, the scale of buildings and roads is also smaller than in SimCity so it will likely feel pretty big. When they zoomed in it seemed quite large.
 
That totally makes. I mean I installed the Orion's mod to simcity to increase the map from 2km x 2km to 3km x 3km and that tiny bit made the agent system go crazy and seemed confused. I can't imagine going from 6km x 6km to 10km x 10km. The whole agent system will probably go bonkers. as it is, I'm going to have to get used to going from 2x2 map to 6x6 map. That's going to be a lot of real estate.

It looks like the modders will have their work cut out for themselves. Hopefully by the time I master the 3x3 map, they'll have built the 5x5 map and have everything well balanced. I'm sure this will be a high priority mod and the modders are anxious to accept this challenge.
 
I don't think people realize the performance cost of building on more tiles. Things like pathfinding balloon out of control when you add more available paths, and given that we can build fairly complex roads and public transportation networks, I can see it start causing performance problems if you were to fill up say... 12 tiles out of the 25 completely. I'm fairly confident that no computer on the planet will be able to fill up 25 tiles and run the game without serious performance issues.

I'm just saying... CO capped it at 9 tiles for a reason.

Yes, Cities XL has 110 square km maps, and whenever you build a road the game slows to a crawl because of path-finding map recalculations.

SimCity 4 has a long pause whenever you place down a new road in a large road network on a large city tile, also because of path-finding map recalculations.

Cities: Skylines has the path-finding on an actual separate thread, so it shouldn't make your UI or FPS drop on a 4-core machine when it processes it. If all the other threads are running heavy I can see a performance hit on a 2-core machine, but you should be safe with the 9 tile maps. If you unlock more map tiles and fill them up and put even more stress on the path-finding and other simulation threads... well, we don't know exactly, but CO has strongly hinted that things will straight up break.