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Playing as Russia...getting owned in every single battle.

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Apr 13, 2012
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Playing as Russia...getting owned in every single battle. Save attached.

Dear EU IV fans, I'm in need of some help.

Now let me first say that I only really started playing this game again about a week ago, but I understand most of the basic concepts of the game even if some of the more nuanced features (like trade) are just too complicated and boring for me to have time to figure out.

So anyway, I decided to try a game with Muscovy into Russia (did the event am now at around 1620 or so) and I was having a lot of fun with it at first...until the "Commonwealth" formed and became the most overpowered nation I've ever seen in EU IV. Every so often they will declare war on me and it feels like there is literally nothing I can do about.

Their armies have better morale, better discipline, and better tradition, whilst they also have a better force limit, better generals and better technology (even better than Austria and France at this point wtf?). I lose every single battle without fail, even when I outnumber them 2 to 1 just because their moral is about 2 points worse than theirs. I can't even pick off their occasional small stacks or bait them because somehow their armies seem to glide across the map at 100 mph so even if I engage an army 4 provinces clear of anyone else, I always get caught before I can squeeze out a victory. The single advantage I have is in manpower, but even this really doesn't matter because by the time I've waited for attrition to take its toll they've captured half of my land (which stretches from Moscow to the Pacific).

I've tried many things to try and rectify the problem, but I simply see no way of matching their army stats. I can't even get decent power projection because they are the only people who I can reasonably rival. I can't even get a decent alliance with anyone who will contribute anything. I did make an alliance with Austria (though half the time they just don't come into the war) but even they get owned by the rape train that is the Commonwealth.

So my question is, what the hell do you do when some country that has way better stuff than you just walks into your land constantly? The only strategy that I could think of was to just build a massive line of forts across the front line and hop that they get attritioned to death in the Russian winter...but embarking on a policy like that would cost me so many military points that I'd lose out on the tech.

I may end up attaching the save in the hopes that someone who understands this game better than me can come up with a reasonable strategy to defeat the Commonwealth aka the most overpowered thing I've ever seen.

/cry over, help welcome please.

EDIT: Here is the save for anyone who is interested in helping.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/gpg1v4zgah44rr4/autosave.rar

On another note, I can't even get anywhere near my force limit because I get CRUSHED by army maintenance as soon as I go to war with the Commonwealth.
 
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Details would be useful. What is your/their tech? Which ideas have you/they taken? What is your army composition? Where are you fighting? What kind of advisors do you have? Etc, etc.

Edit: Also, are you sure you have raised your maintenance slider to full?
 
Poland/Commonwealth has good military NI set, but it's stll not as strong as Ottoman with Jannissaries bonuses or Sweden NI-wise.
What are your idea groups? To effectively use attrition you need Defensive and scorth land.
Get a western tech group allied neighbour, so you can get -10% tech cost from Western Arms Trade triggered modifier.
 
Belisarius89 said:
Details would be useful. What is your/their tech? Which ideas have you/they taken? What is your army composition? Where are you fighting? What kind of advisors do you have? Etc, etc.
Click to expand...

I can't remember exactly, but something like this for ideas:

Humanism
Quantity
Aristocratic
Expansion.

I don't know how to check theirs.

My tech is 17, theirs 18.

Fighting mostly in western Russia (the provinces around Moscow).

Not really got any decent advisors, sadly, though that is something I missed. Usually I have to go for the level 1 guy because I bleed money so so fast otherwise when at war (even with war taxes).

Anyway, I attached the save game if you want to look at it.

Edit: yes obviously I got the slider set to full when I want to engage them, I'm not that retarded.
 
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I recommend you read most of this: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Land_warfare. Especially this part: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Land_warfare#Strategies_and_tactics
You also need to be on par with military tech and have at least 1-2 military idea groups to be able to beat them, especially as a new player. I recommend Offensive and Defensive for Russia.
About allies, that's a bit odd. Russia is quite big and shouldn't have a problem getting large allies.
Austria, France, Denmark, even the Ottomans can help :)


Trick question: are you charging it to fight them like a man when they declare war? If you are, stop doing that. You have a ton of provinces, especially in Siberia, and the best tactic is to let them siege your provinces and melt away their manpower.
 
oblio- said:
I recommend you read most of this: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Land_warfare. Especially this part: http://www.eu4wiki.com/Land_warfare#Strategies_and_tactics
You also need to be on par with military tech and have at least 1-2 military idea groups to be able to beat them, especially as a new player. I recommend Offensive and Defensive for Russia.
About allies, that's a bit odd. Russia is quite big and shouldn't have a problem getting large allies.
Austria, France, Denmark, even the Ottomans can help :)


Trick question: are you charging it to fight them like a man when they declare war? If you, stop doing that. You have a ton of provinces, especially in Siberia, and the best tactic is to let them siege your provinces and melt away their manpower.
Click to expand...

With the exception of Austria, no one in Europe is really possible to ally, and even Austria are useless. This is mainly because pretty much everyone is neutral to the Commonwealth and so gets a -60 to joining the war even if they are allied to me. Also, France and the Ottomans rivaled me...so no chance of alliances there. There is no-one to the East who is useful either.

Also no I'm not charging at them, I sit back for ages because I know I'll lose every fight anyway. The problem is they have so much damn manpower that by the time they've run low, they've already captured all of my stuff and I'm at like -90% warscore with low enthusiasm etc.
 
Leving said:
With the exception of Austria, no one in Europe is really possible to ally, and even Austria are useless. This is mainly because pretty much everyone is neutral to the Commonwealth and so gets a -60 to joining the war even if they are allied to me. Also, France and the Ottomans rivaled me...so no chance of alliances there. There is no-one to the East who is useful either.

Also no I'm not charging at them, I sit back for ages because I know I'll lose every fight anyway. The problem is they have so much damn manpower that by the time they've run low, they've already captured all of my stuff and I'm at like -90% warscore with low enthusiasm etc.
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Don't attack them if your allies don't join.

Allies will join defensive wars (they will not join if they're very exhausted from a previous war, but that's much less likely than refusing to join an offensive war). Get 1-2 more allies, there must be something else remotely useful in your area. Brandenburg, Denmark, Sweden, Hungary, anything to make your alliance's troop count look scary. This will dissuade Poland from attacking.

Meanwhile, beat up everyone to the East: hordes, Ming, Korea, Timurids, Persia, Indians. At some point Poland won't be able to grow anymore because growing in Europe is much harder than growing in Asia - so you'll be much, much larger. You'll also have more military idea groups (Offensive/Defensive/Quality) and possibly a good military advisor.

That's when you attack them ;)
 
oblio- said:
Don't attack them if your allies don't join.

Allies will join defensive wars (they will not join if they're very exhausted from a previous war, but that's much less likely than refusing to join an offensive war). Get 1-2 more allies, there must be something else remotely useful in your area. Brandenburg, Denmark, Sweden, Hungary, get your side's man count up. This will dissuade Poland from attacking.

Meanwhile, beat up everyone to the East: hordes, Ming, Korea, Timurids, Persia, Indians. At some point Poland won't be able to grow anymore because growing in Europe is much harder than growing in Asia - so you'll be much, much larger. You'll also have more military idea groups (Offensive/Defensive/Quality) and possibly a good military advisor.

That's when you attack them ;)
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I have been doing but the problem is that every time they come across my border they take 4 or 5 of my best provinces (Russia's power is in the West). I'm already much larger than them but I just can't keep up with their ridiculous technology, and army stats. The Danish were my allies at first but for some reason their country is totally rubbish in the present game...always getting owned by rebels and the like.
 
Ive had a hard time fighting them in my Norway game, luckily overwhelming numbers helps. So you have a point that theyre hard.

Keep in mind, PLC is very cavalry heavy as well, so it might be an idea to try and pad out your troops with more cav numbers. Take a look at their rival list, a great big rival of theirs should be more inclined to help you out in a defensive war. As someone else suggested though, it might be your game wont get a chance to recover. Quantity imho is wasted as Russia, its a good tech to have in most cases but you get so much from your NIs that you'd be better going for offensive worse.

Poland is a lucky nation in 1.8 so their generals are better as well, that shock 5 going against your shock 3 is a painfully massive gap. Don't feel bad though, many people have been criticising Russia in 1.8 as being underpowered. In the old days it was a cake walk.

If you started as them again, you'll know to focus on ensuring the PLC doesn't form and kicking them whilst theyre down (they often take large chucks of the HRE, thats the time to pounce)
 
Leving said:
I can't remember exactly, but something like this for ideas:

Humanism
Quantity
Aristocratic
Expansion.

I don't know how to check theirs.

My tech is 17, theirs 18.

Fighting mostly in western Russia (the provinces around Moscow).

Not really got any decent advisors, sadly, though that is something I missed. Usually I have to go for the level 1 guy because I bleed money so so fast otherwise when at war (even with war taxes).

Anyway, I attached the save game if you want to look at it.

Edit: yes obviously I got the slider set to full when I want to engage them, I'm not that retarded.
Click to expand...

Dont bother with quantity, go offensive instead. As Russia manpower shouldnt be a concern, focus on getting better troops/leaders instead.
 
Leving said:
This is exactly what I have been doing but the problem is that every time they come across my border they take 4 or 5 of my best provinces (Russia's power is in the West). I'm already much larger than them but I just can't keep up with their ridiculous technology, and army stats. The Danish were my allies at first but for some reason their country is totally rubbish in the present game...always getting owned by rebels and the like.
Click to expand...
Get more allies. Go over the diplomatic relation limit - at this point you're trying to salvage your campaign so losing 1-2 DIP per month is not a problem.
Castile/Spain, England/Great Britain, anyone larger in Germany or Italy. You want numbers. If you appear very large (your army + allies), your enemies won't attack.

National focus on military. Get your military tech up - at least equal to Poland. Get military idea groups. And considering you're Russia with Quantity, I really hope you have a lot more troops than he does.

You're also saying that you're losing money - use the trade map mode and see if you can't optimize the way you're collecting money from trade. It seems strange that you're losing money considering the Russian ideas and the fact that you have Quantity as well.
 
oblio- said:
Get more allies. Go over the diplomatic relation limit - at this point you're trying to salvage your campaign so losing 1-2 DIP per month is not a problem.
Castile/Spain, England/Great Britain, anyone larger in Germany or Italy. You want numbers. If you appear very large (your army + allies), your enemies won't attack.

National focus on military. Get your military tech up - at least equal to Poland. Get military idea groups. And considering you're Russia with Quantity, I really hope you have a lot more troops than he does.

You're also saying that you're losing money - use the trade map mode and see if you can't optimize the way you're collecting money from trade. It seems strange that you're losing money considering the Russian ideas and the fact that you have Quantity as well.
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How do I put a national focus on military? If you mean where you press the button next to the monarch points then I don't have that. Presumably its part of a DLC.

Also, the problem is I can't feasibly keep up with their military tech and unlock loads of tech ideas at the same time. As to the money issue, I don't really understand either. If I get to my force limit and set it at full maintenance then I always start bleeding cash. I don't really understand the economics system to well, I admit that. I do know that I'm weak in trading because I have such a small naval force limit. It's a shame because I have such a cosmic amount of manpower but no way of exploiting it because I can't support my force limit whilst at war. During the last war I was bleeding like 30 gold a month...which is obviously unacceptable.

Thanks for the help so far though guys.
 
You have land trade routes so dont worry about naval units. You'll never match Scandinavia in that corner. Keep in mind the biggest change for 1.8 and Russia was the min province autonomy of 50% for new colonies.

This was a big big nerf to Siberia which many are like "thats accurate and fine" to "omg, russia nerf". Another thing to look out for is gold mines. During peace with the PLC. Make a bee line for any gold mines that the hordes hold. You should have a couple in Siberia as well. Add on the production buildings to those. Check inflation, check that youre not going over your forcelimit.

Erm, cannons cost a fortune as well, but after tech 13 or so theyre pretty damned important. Maybe you need more tax buildings in Moskva and surrounding rich provinces. Its all stuff to learn for a future game :)
 
One specific question I did have is it possible to get colonists without ideas?

Obviously colonizing Siberia is an important part of the Russia game, but at the same time I don't want to waste an idea group just so I can unlock one colonist. Do you get them by event at some point or?
 
Russia does have a NI that includes a colonist. Normally just taking expansion so eventually you can DOW all of Asia whenever you want is a given.

http://www.eu4wiki.com/Russia

Its normally a safe one to take in your first group, because you need mil points exclusively for tech until about tech7. You cant afford to dump points in a mil idea group until then. Historically you'd go for the gold mines in the south of you but I think theyve changed them a bit. Might be worth trying to secure a march in say Ryzan and feed them lith territory, of course this is in a new game.
 
Leving said:
How do I put a national focus on military? If you mean where you press the button next to the monarch points then I don't have that. Presumably its part of a DLC.

Also, the problem is I can't feasibly keep up with their military tech and unlock loads of tech ideas at the same time. As to the money issue, I don't really understand either. If I get to my force limit and set it at full maintenance then I always start bleeding cash. I don't really understand the economics system to well, I admit that. I do know that I'm weak in trading because I have such a small naval force limit. It's a shame because I have such a cosmic amount of manpower but no way of exploiting it because I can't support my force limit whilst at war. During the last war I was bleeding like 30 gold a month...which is obviously unacceptable.

Thanks for the help so far though guys.
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Since you conquered the hordes, reached the Pacific, and have Expansion, I would suggest the following trade setup:
  • Merchant in Siberia to direct to Kazan
  • Merchant in Girin to direct to Siberia
  • Merchant in Astraskhan to direct to Kazan
  • You will automatically collect in Novgorod as this is your capital
  • Ideally, you'd need another merchant in Samarkand to steer to Astraskhan, but this may be difficult without trade ideas.
Then, make sure to build trade buildings in provinces with a bonus to trade power. Namely Novgorod, Neva, Moscow (in Novgorod node), Astraskhan (Astraskhan node), Mangazaea (Siberian node) and Kazan (Kazan node).
With this setup, you should start making a little bit more of trade.

About taxes, you should build as many temples as possible, but in priority in your core Russian orthodox lands, if this isn't already done. Don't bother with the rest of the government line, except maybe in Moscow, Novgorod and Tver.

Your money is probably going to come mostly from Production. Good news, Production also improves trade, so build in trade nodes you control. :)
Start with high base tax provinces and higher value goods and build the first 2 Production buildings there. Also, do the same in gold provinces. Don't build many buildings in provinces you colonised, you get a -50% on Production, trade power, taxes and manpower there. I see that you have Humanism ideas, still if you have cultures not accepted, it could be a good idea to convert them, if you don't know what to do about your Diplo points.

With all this, and Quantity ideas, you should be able to finance a larger military than the Commonwealth, even in wartimes. For the diplomatic side of the solution, I agree with previous posters that your should find new allies that will join you in defensive wars. You don't seem to be in a position to go on the Offensive. :)
 
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I just loaded up your save, here are some pointers for you.

First off your immediate problems, the CW have 6.7 morale and you only have 4 they also have better discipline but their general [the on on your border] is not great, not bad but could be worse so there is hope. That 3 start general however thats is in Lithuania is a problem. You are outnumbered in every area, down south in Buzuluk and around Muscovy, you need to get these armies together and let the CW chase you around. Use scorched earth and bait the CW armies to attack you over rivers and in harsh winter. They will continue to siege you down and your WE will increase [so decrease it once you have the Dip points] but their MP will deplete within a few years or so and that is when you strike back.

You need to get a military advisor quickly, the ones you have available are poor at best, but I did get a Discipline advisor a few months down the road and this is what will help a morale advisor works too. And change your focus to Military [If you have the DLC]

Money seems to be a problem, so move your merchants out of Novgorod, and transfer from the Astrakhan to Kazan and the move the Kazan merchant to Siberia to transfer to Kazan, enact war taxes too and you can field more troops, this is your only way to go for now. Eventually the CW will white peace and you take it. That will get you out of the war so you can perform radical changes :)


Sweden is a good ally for you, RM them and they will accept an alliance off from you, France will be more amenable after you set the Ottomans as a Rival and they may accept an Alliance request [if you have a dip rep advisor]. These will act as buffers fro future CW aggression.

In the mean time, Quantity is a poor choice, but you are too far into the ideas to make it cost efficient [as in get rid of it]. However you are close to admin Tech 17 so you can pick up Offensive then. You need the pips and you need that force march.
 
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Yorkie-GBR said:
I just loaded up your save, here are some pointers for you.

First off your immediate problems, the CW have 6.7 morale and you only have 4 they also have better discipline but their general [the on on your border] is not great, not bad but could be worse so there is hope. You are outnumbered in every area, down south in Buzuluk and around Muscovy, you need to get these armies together and let the CW chase you around. Use scorched earth and bait the CW armies to attack you over rivers and in harsh winter. They will continue to siege you down and your WE will increase [so decrease it once you have the Dip points] but their MP will deplete within a few years or so and that is when you strike back.

You need to get a military advisor quickly, the ones you have available are poor at best, but I did get a Discipline advisor a few months down the road and this is what will help a morale advisor works too. And change your focus to Military [If you have the DLC]

Money seems to be a problem, so move your merchants out of Novgorod, and transfer from the Astrakhan to Kazan and the move the Kazan merchant to Siberia to transfer to Kazan, enact war taxes too and you can field more troops, this is your only way to go for now. Eventually the CW will white peace and you take it. That will get you out of the war so you can perform radical changes :)


Sweden is a good ally for you, RM them and they will accept an alliance off from you, France will be more amenable after you set the Ottomans as a Rival and they may accept an Alliance request [if you have a dip rep advisor]. These will act as buffers fro future CW aggression.

In the mean time, Quantity is a poor choice, but you are too far into the ideas to make it cost efficient [as in get rid of it]. However you are close to admin Tech 17 so you can pick up Offensive then. You need the pips and you need that force march.
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Thanks for this. Personally I didn't know that Quantity was such a poor choice, I mean I unlocked everything in so my manpower is insanely huge now lol.

On another note, I don't really understand how trading works which is a pretty big problem for me. I watched many videos on it, but I still don't really get it. So many numbers...and unnecessarily complicated in my opinion. As a new player, I have the same problem with things like military tradition and stuff because the numbers all come in different formats and have nothing with which they can be compared to. Like just seeing that I have 30 tradition means nothing because its not contextualized against any other figures (unlike things like tech).
 
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Leving said:
Thanks for this. Personally I didn't know that Quantity was such a poor choice, I mean I unlocked everything in so my manpower is insanely huge now lol.
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You can if you wanted get out of the war quicker by conceding a few territories, if you do decrease autonomy to increase revolt risk in the CW, theres is a slim of a rebellion in some places. With the amount of territory the y have taken out of the HRE i'm surprised that they don't have more problems in the West. But I suppose that whats to be expected when you have a weak emperor.

It won't be an easy ride from here on out, because they are [The CW] pretty much stable and every one in the vicinity loves them, until that changes and they or someone else in the West forces their hand you are going to be seeing another invasion of the Motherland with in 15years of your peace. :(
 
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