"Alatic" cultures and the converter

Kansai-kun · Nov 21, 2014

So, after the EU4 patch for AoW divided the Altaic culture groups into four separate ones - Altaic, Oghuz, Evenk and Tartar. Up to this point Altaic was the catch-all group for Turkic cultures - it still plays this role in CK2, but before AoW all of the CK2-only Altaic cultures - Cuman, Penecheg, Khazar, etc. - converted to the Turko-Semitic group instead of the Altaic group. My guess would that someoneone used the Turks for orientation instead of, oh, the Mongols, ignoring that the only reason Turks were in one culture group with the Arabs in EU4 was to encourage the Ottomans to conquer Egypt and Arabia.

So now that the Turks are in the new Oghuz culture group in EU4 and there's no catch-all Altaic (Turkic) group anymore, what should happen with the Altaic cultures on conversion? The Cumans aren't Oghuz Turks, but they should fit into the Tartar group (based on how many Tartar languages/dialect are part of the Kipchak today). The Pechenegs could be converted into the Oghuz group, but what about the other cultures, for example the Khazars? I don't know that much about Turkic cultures/languages, but it bugged the hell out me when all these steppe people were in the same culture group as the Arabs in EU4, despite the existance of a specific culture group for "horde cultures, namely Altaic.

I assume they will still be all put in the same culture group as the Turks in the fix, but I really hope they don't do that (again).

Another matter of hand is that in CK2 Turkmens and Turks are both represented by the same culture: Turkish. It should either split in CK2, depending on location (Turks in Anatolia, Turkmens in Turkestan/North Persia, maybe Azeri in Azerbaijan) or convert them to different cultures in EU4, also depending on location.

EDIT: Yes, there's a typo in the title. I only saw it after opening the thread.

ekorovin · Nov 21, 2014

I pretty much agree with everything you say, and Khazars should probably be Kypchak linguistically.

The thing is it's very hard to classify Turkic cultures in distinct groups even now, let alone in an age before nationalism (which for many Turkic peoplesis like 1920s) let alone before that. And Paradox classification is odd to say the least: Altaic is like making Indo-European culture, Tartar is basically Russian word for all Turks, except Turkish and Central Asian that has little to do with anything, Evenk has absolutely nothing to do with any thing Turkic, linguistically they are closer to Manchurians and culturally are galaxies away from the rest of cultures, using Evenk culture group for Yakuts is a madness.

Basically, only Oguz has any meaning in this context.

VolitionNewlove · Nov 21, 2014

The "Altaic" culture group has always been a mess.

User29 · Nov 21, 2014

I think simple solutions work the best, since mostly Paradox might actually implement them, so I say they all convert to Tartar group but keep their CK2 names.

AvroLancaster · Nov 21, 2014

User29 said:
I think simple solutions work the best, since mostly Paradox might actually implement them, so I say they all convert to Tartar group but keep their CK2 names.

I hope this is not the case.

It's such a treat to see cultures like Avar, Mordvin (not Altaic, I know), or Pecheneg survive until conversion. Having them put in ethnolinguistically appropriate groupings just adds to the magic of converting, since you are now part of a new community of nations.

Since conceptions of where peoples fit into the world with reference to other groups changes as time marches on, it's neat to be able to change your perspective and allies and conception of self as you jump through the centuries. Having everything thrown into Tartar would be a disappointment.

Also, 420th post

Red Khan · Nov 22, 2014

Kansai-kun said:
The Cumans aren't Oghuz Turks, but they should fit into the Tartar group (based on how many Tartar languages/dialect are part of the Kipchak today).

Tatars are descendant of Cumans. A dictionary written by Italians in Crimea during 14th century is called Codex Cumanicus.

Kansai-kun said:
but what about the other cultures, for example the Khazars?

Most of linguists tend to put Khazar, Avar and Bolghar languages into separate branch Oghur branch. Although it is disputed (especially Bolghar), since very little remain of the languages (in case of Khazar and Avar - only some names and titles in Byzantine/Arabic/Persian chronicles). The only surviving member of this language to this day is Chuvash language, but Chuvash people are not represented in EU4. Paradox, instead, preferred to split Tatars, making one-province non-existent at the start of the game Qasim Tatars.
Although judging by comments in 00_cultures.txt file Paradox is aware of Oghur branch existence.

Just an interesting fact - some linguists tend to classify language of the Huns as Oghur, that's why Atilla in Civ5 is speaking Chuvash (although a very broken one, since 2K failed to find a translator and voice actor that actually know the language).

[video=youtube;hYVisFccpFo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYVisFccpFo[/video]

User29 · Nov 22, 2014

just going to remind you guys culture groups =/= language groups, Basque is in the Iberian Group with Latin speakers, Nubian with East African, Alan with Byzantine and many more in EU4.

Linguistics is an awesome field, but it is separate from culture groups in this game, just heavily influenced by language groups.

Red Khan · Nov 22, 2014

User29 said:
just going to remind you guys culture groups =/= language groups, Basque is in the Iberian Group with Latin speakers, Nubian with East African, Alan with Byzantine and many more in EU4.

And that's why Finns are in the same culture group as Khanty people?

Kansai-kun · Nov 22, 2014

User29 said:
just going to remind you guys culture groups =/= language groups, Basque is in the Iberian Group with Latin speakers, Nubian with East African, Alan with Byzantine and many more in EU4.

Linguistics is an awesome field, but it is separate from culture groups in this game, just heavily influenced by language groups.

Nubian is a separate culture group in EU4 (Sudanese) and Alan will probably be changed to the new Causacian group. But Paradox has been fairly inconsistent in regard to culture groups. At first Basque was its own culture group surrounded by Iberian while the Magyars were part of the West Slavic group - then that was switched around for some reason. And now they actually split the "Turkic" cultures into different culture groups, so they do seem to care to some extent.
Most of the CK2 steppe cultures would probably fit in the Tartar group, but Karluks should be in the Oghuz group.

User29 · Nov 22, 2014

Red Khan said:
And that's why Finns are in the same culture group as Khanty people?

Paradox believes Finno-Ugric should always be in the same group for some reason, no matter what. lol.

Red Khan · Nov 22, 2014

Kansai-kun said:
Most of the CK2 steppe cultures would probably fit in the Tartar group, but Karluks should be in the Oghuz group.

Linguistically speaking Karluks are another branch and are as close to Oghur as Cumans or Oghuz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karluk_languages
Although such classification is disputed.

User29 said:
Paradox believes Finno-Ugric should always be in the same group for some reason, no matter what. lol.

That's the point - linguistics is the base, since it's at least something more or less solid. They can alter it in some cases though for some other reasons.

Kansai-kun said:
while the Magyars were part of the West Slavic group - then that was switched around for some reason.

AFAIK Hungarians on the forum complained.

Kansai-kun · Nov 27, 2014

Red Khan said:
Linguistically speaking Karluks are another branch and are as close to Oghur as Cumans or Oghuz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karluk_languages
Although such classification is disputed.

Thanks, didn't know that. But the depiction of Turkic cultures in CK2 is strange anyway - I'm not even sure what the ingame "Turkish" culture even represents. The Ghaznavids who are said to be descended from Karluk military slaves are depicted as Turks, as are the Turkmens.

User29 · Nov 27, 2014

Red Khan said:
That's the point - linguistics is the base, since it's at least something more or less solid. They can alter it in some cases though for some other reasons.

And my point is it isn't everything.

Red Khan · Nov 27, 2014

Kansai-kun said:
Thanks, didn't know that. But the depiction of Turkic cultures in CK2 is strange anyway - I'm not even sure what the ingame "Turkish" culture even represents.

Initially they were to represent mainly Seljuk Turks, but when the start date pushed earlier I guess they started to represent the initial Oghuz people. Which perfectly makes sense, Seljuks Turks came from a Oghuz tribe called Kınık and Ottomans came from another tribe called Kayı.

Kansai-kun said:
The Ghaznavids who are said to be descended from Karluk military slaves are depicted as Turks, as are the Turkmens.

Turkmen is just another name for Oghuz, it's written so in Dīwānu l-Luġat al-Turk. As for Ghaznavids I'm not sure, but Mahmud al-Kashgari certainly must have mentioned them.

As for others - 769 start is fifty years since the fall of Western Turkic Khaganate, so it could be anything from one Turkic culture to one tribe - one culture.

User29 said:
And my point is it isn't everything.

Yeah, sometimes it's "we don't know where to stick it so let's stick it here".

Doombreeder92 · Nov 27, 2014

All culture is Altaic culture, we all T0rks except gayreeks
>Le Happy Turan

Topkekk · Nov 27, 2014

Doombreeder92 said:
All culture is Altaic culture, we all T0rks except gayreeks
>Le Happy Turan

Anyway, all Turkics in altaic makes sense in 769 start, since fall of the Turkic Khanate was pretty new and all those people lived the same, had similar language etc. but it's kinda wrong to have them in the same group by 1337. That's pretty normal since Paradox doesn't give a damn about late game atm. One thing that'd be a good start is to rename Turkish to Oghuz, since that's pretty much what it means in-game (and real world).

Lots of things related to culture groups would be solved if there was a 1 more tier in cultures. So we can divide Altaic to 2 different branches to simulate that a beylerbey in Rum Sultanate would probably see Pechenegs that they interact from time to time closer to him, more than a Bolghar. While a Bengali would still be a complete stranger to him.

Doombreeder92 · Nov 27, 2014

Topkekk said:
Anyway, all Turkics in altaic makes sense in 769 start, since fall of the Turkic Khanate was pretty new and all those people lived the same, had similar language etc. but it's kinda wrong to have them in the same group by 1337. That's pretty normal since Paradox doesn't give a damn about late game atm. One thing that'd be a good start is to rename Turkish to Oghuz, since that's pretty much what it means in-game (and real world) atm.

Lots of things related to culture groups would be solved if there was a 1 more tier in cultures. So we can divide Altaic to 2 different branches to simulate that a beylerbey in Rum Sultanate would probably see Pechenegs that they interact from time to time closer to him, more than a Bolghar. While a Bengali would still be a complete stranger to him.

...I love you

Topkekk · Nov 28, 2014

Doombreeder92 said:
...I love you

Umm, thanks.. I guess.

Kansai-kun · Nov 28, 2014

So, I just tested the converter. Since the Turko-Semitic group was removed in favor of different Arabic and Turkic groups, the Altaic cultures of CK2 ... are now in the Arabic group:

I'm really feeling like the voice in the wilderness by now, since I've been bringing up this issue since the release of the converter. >_>

User29 · Dec 1, 2014

don't give up, Groogy will fix it, just keep up your morale

"Alatic" cultures and the converter

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