Hearts of Iron IV Retells History through a Look at Military Technology

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I don't think that will happen in the game, because they specifically pointed out why not in the video.

q7Bovlt.jpg

It is still the reason why the USA did not mobilise vast numbers of divisions. They did not want their industry, military or consumer, to suffer in any way.
 
How will airplane variants work? A 109 E-3 has less firepower and an inferior engine to a G-6, and a G-6 has less firepower and a weaker engine still compared to the K-4, but all I see on the tech tree is each vehicle's base model.
 
In the video a very good point is made about self propelled guns.

The German light tanks (Pz II, captured Czech tanks) were basically useless in 1942 onwards.

What the historian has said is that the Germans took those tanks back to the factories and made them into SPG's - they took out the turret and put in guns which could and did hurt the Soviet tanks.

Now cut to the game tech tree for Germany aaaaaaand... no SPG's, the Pz II can be made into a Leopard (lol wut?).

One thing that can be easily accomplished in this game and which will make it superior (at least in this respect) to HOI3 is to do what Germany historically did and what the historian in video pointed out - ability to remanufacture obsolete tanks into SPG's (In HOI3 you manufactured TD's separately and of course they had their own tech tree for AT and used light tanks techs).

The way the production works now it is VERY doable in this game.

And for ****s sake, take out the Leopard German tank out of that tech tree. As far as I can find on the web, it was NEVER produced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VK_1602_Leopard


TLDR
Give us SPG!
 
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In the video a very good point is made about self propelled guns.

The German light tanks (Pz II, captured Czech tanks) were basically useless in 1942 onwards.

What the historian has said is that the Germans took those tanks back to the factories and made them into SPG's - they took out the turret and put in guns which could and did hurt the Soviet tanks.

Now cut to the game tech tree for Germany aaaaaaand... no SPG's, the Pz II can be made into a Leopard (lol wut?).

One thing that can be easily accomplished in this game and which will make it superior (at least in this respect) to HOI3 is to do what Germany historically did and what the historian in video pointed out - ability to remanufacture obsolete tanks into SPG's (In HOI3 you manufactured TD's separately and of course they had their own tech tree for AT and used light tanks techs).

The way the production works now it is VERY doable in this game.

And for ****s sake, take out the Leopard German tank out of that tech tree. As far as I can find on the web, it was NEVER produced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VK_1602_Leopard


TLDR
Give us SPG!

They said (in the video I think) that the player can do exactly what you described with the SPG's ;)
 
Well, if devs are inspired by game which brutally raped historicity, I'm no longer surprised by so many mistakes in german tree.

What do you see as a mistake?

The one that leaps out at me is the placement of the Pz3 and Pz4, but this can be rationalized as the development of more sophisticated turrets. Certainly the Pz3 had a capable chassis, and perhaps was more useful in it's Sturmgeschütz III form, but as a tank it was more of a dead end than the Pz4.

I've also seen people complain about the classification of Pz1s and Pz2s as "Medium" tanks. This does not bother me because when the the Pz1 and Pz2 were designed and first used, they were effectively medium tanks. Later on tanks did generally become heavier, by 1942 the Pz1 and Pz2 effectively were light tanks, but this doesn't make them post-facto into light tank designs. Which brings us to:

And for ****s sake, take out the Leopard German tank out of that tech tree. As far as I can find on the web, it was NEVER produced.

Hearts of Iron is a sandbox game which begins in 1936 and it would be railroading if Germany did not have a slot which allowed for the development of the strategic equivalent of the Chaffee tank. The shape of the Tech tree should be uniform across all nations, the laws of thermodynamics and machinery are not different for Germany and the USA.

Now cut to the game tech tree for Germany aaaaaaand... no SPG's, the Pz II can be made into a Leopard (lol wut?).

It's just the tank tree. SPGs, TDs, SPAAGs all deserve their own tree which we haven't seen yet.

But you're right about the upgrade system of HoI3, it is unrealistic. More accurately it's an aggregation through an upgrade slider which HoI3 used to make upgrading equipment ridiculously simple and easy. But it is not less absurd for a Pz2 to be converted to a Leopard than it is for a Pz4 to be converter into a Panther. They are totally different designs and therefore are as like as apples to oranges if you were to attempt to transform one to the other. So I hope that the whole upgrade system in HoI4 is reworked to be more realistic without making it micromanagement hell to retool Pz3s as StuG IIIs or to reassign Pz2s from a medium role to a light role.
 
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Hearts of Iron is a sandbox game which begins in 1936 and it would be railroading if Germany did not have a slot which allowed for the development of the strategic equivalent of the Chaffee tank. The shape of the Tech tree should be uniform across all nations, the laws of thermodynamics and machinery are not different for Germany and the USA.

I think this might be the German equivalent, or at least what should fit in the place where the "Leopard" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_II#mediaviewer/File:PzIIL.Saumur.000a4p5p.jpg
 
I think this might be the German equivalent, or at least what should fit in the place where the "Leopard" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_II#mediaviewer/File:PzIIL.Saumur.000a4p5p.jpg

Why not just make that Germany's 1941 light tank, and leave the Leopard to the 1944 slot?

The Pz2 was a 1934 design which entered service in 1936, not 1941. Pz2 belongs in the 1936 slot, and it's already there.

We might hope that later on, as the Pz2 is supplanted by the Pz3, improved variants of the Pz2 (and M3/M5 Stuart) migrate into the light tank role until the 'Late-War Light' design, which the Chaffee and Leopard represent, becomes viable. IRL Germany focused it's later war tank research into things the US in turn never fielded, the Tiger II and Maus.

Le_Carabinier made a tree which AFAIK simply moves the Pz1 + Pz2 to the light column. This might be a purely cosmetic change, and equally as accurate as what Paradox has now. Perhaps Le_Carabinier's tree is easier for the WW2 layman to understand.
 
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What do you see as a mistake?
Actually almost whole tree. The idea of identical trees for each country, when development of armored troops in major countries was so different, doesn't let for at least cursory copy of that differences. Sandbox mean neither 'screw historical conditions' nor 'sf over historical plausibility'.

But, well, it's doubtful that developers will change this idea, so back to mistakes:
- Leichtertraktor was neither FT-17 (I don't remember if the developers were going to fix LTs icon) nor equivalent of WWI tank, nay, it wasn't even the first german tank in interbellum. The first was Grosstraktor (first development approach dates back to 1925), while first plans of Leichtertraktor dates back to 1928. Similarly, first GTs prototype was built in 1928, LTs - in 1930. Moreover, it's difficult to prove derivation of PzKpfw I in a straight line from LT, but, of course, for the game we can take such simplification.
- Grosstraktor, as I wrote above, was a tank from late twenties, not from 1934. I could write more about it, but I already discussed this question with podcat here and now I know, that he knows history of german tanks better than experts like Doyle, Chamberlain, Jentz or Spielberger.
- A weird gap between 'Grosstraktor wannabe NbFz' and Tiger. Tiger didn't come from NbFz, between them were many projects like Durchbruchwagen and Henschels' VK 3001, VK 6501 and finally VK 3601, which will be nice addition to german tree. Also there is no Tiger (P), which cross out arguments under the title 'it's sandbox game' and 'it's all about our choices'. If I can't build tanks made by Porsche instead of Henschel, where is my choice?
- The only improvement of Tiger II could be E-75, not E-50. Even in WoT it is done correctly.
- Weird links between Tigers and Panzer IV & Panther. I hope they don't mean that we can develop Tigers from medium tanks or vice versa. It's very hard to defense such idea.
- Panzer I & II question. If I remember correctly, in game they're light tanks, just whole line is signed as 'medium'. Of course it's correct, Panzer I from the very beginning was created as light tank, quoting Panzer Tracts: Krupp had been selected by Wa.Prw.6 to work on the detailed design of a small light tracked tractor named Kleintraktor. Armament was to consist of a 2cm machinegun. Powered by an air-cooled engine rated at 60 metric horsepower, its total weight was not to exceed 3 metric tons. Kleintraktor was of course the earliest project of what was later called Panzer I.
- Whole line of medium tanks... Well, Panzer I/II/III/IV was more or less simultaneous projects, it's hard to say that one derived strictly from the second. Also Panther should have equivalents such as VK 3002 (DB) or T-25. It will be a nice sandbox thing.
- VK 1602 question. The best thing, which can be done here, is adding Luchs (which was called also Panzerspähwagen II Ausf. L, it doesn't need to be included in Panzer II slot) and T-15, then leaving the choice to players.

I won't elaborate about the erroneous assignment of tanks to date, because it's the result of 'the same tree for all countries'. Actually all tanks could have default names like 'Heavy Armour '41', since from the point of view of mechanics of the game it doesn't make any difference. Developers would save their time on research, icons and listening lingerers like me.
 
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Actually almost whole tree. The idea of identical trees for each country, when development of armored troops in major countries was so different, doesn't let for at least cursory copy of that differences. Sandbox mean neither 'screw historical conditions' nor 'sf over historical plausibility'.

More accurately from the POV of 1936, the development of armored troops in major countries will be different. It would be a poor HoI if we were not allowed to influence how our nation's weapons develop. I do not see why it should be destined that the USA must produce the Chaffee and that Germany must produce the Maus. Nor would it make sense for the AI to be stuck in the same path as history because in Paradox games history deviates from it's historical path. For example if Germany did not rush Tigers and Panthers to the Eastern Front in '42, the USSR would not have needed to rush the development of IS tanks in order to counter them. However we of course do expect the historical path of tank development to follow history to some degree.

Mobile Warfare: This path focuses on mobile mechanized units and is the default German path. Armour and motorized/mechanized units will have the largest gains in this path.

In EU4 we have nations scripted to take certain ideas, for example AI Castile is scripted to take Exploration. In HoI4 we might expect Germany to research technologies which make their tank variants more suitable to a moving battlefield. As a result it will be very unlikely that the Pz2 fielded by Germany will be identical to the FCM 36 or whatever tanks the French have in the same slot.

- Leichtertraktor was neither FT-17 (I don't remember if the developers were going to fix LTs icon) nor equivalent of WWI tank, nay, it wasn't even the first german tank in interbellum. The first was Grosstraktor (first development approach dates back to 1925), while first plans of Leichtertraktor dates back to 1928. Similarly, first GTs prototype was built in 1928, LTs - in 1930. Moreover, it's difficult to prove derivation of PzKpfw I in a straight line from LT, but, of course, for the game we can take such simplification.
- Grosstraktor, as I wrote above, was a tank from late twenties, not from 1934. I could write more about it, but I already discussed this question with podcat here and now I know, that he knows history of german tanks better than experts like Doyle, Chamberlain, Jentz or Spielberger.

You are obsessing over the date, as if it indicates when the vehicle must be created, it does not. In fact it is a staple of Paradox games that "ahead of time" development can give you a Tech advantage in exchange for a higher research cost. Tank development, like all research, is uneven between nations. The Leichtraktor and the Grosstraktor are were both prototypes developed years before the game starts. The fact that they were developed in parallel is rather incidental. As far as I can tell the Pz1 will be available from the start so it will never make sense to manufacture any Leichttraktors.

The reason those slots exist in those spots are to give other nations, who haven't started tank development by 1936, a place to start. The principle of creating a prototype of a smaller tracked vehicle like the Leichtraktor would be a requirement before fielding a large tracked vehicle like the Grosstraktor makes sense to me.

- A weird gap between 'Grosstraktor wannabe NbFz' and Tiger. Tiger didn't come from NbFz, between them were many projects like Durchbruchwagen and Henschels' VK 3001, VK 6501 and finally VK 3601, which will be nice addition to german tree.

The reason the Grosstraktor slot exists is to give you an opportunity to manufacture ahistorical counterparts to the Char B, mainstays in World of Tanks, some of which you mention. None of these popular WoT vehicles were ever fielded in numbers. You have set in your mind that you want to build specific tank prototypes you know from WoT and that's fine, but it's up to you to develop them under the umbrella name 'Grosstraktor' which covers all German Heavy Tank development before the Tiger.

As gamer_1745 pointed out, all the early heavy tank prototypes went under Grosstraktor. Initially we had the thing titled Neubaufahrzeug , but classifying both this and the Leichtraktor as traktors is more consistent, and also makes for cool story flavor about the german tank program. As for the Leichtraktor we dont currently have unique icons for "late WW1 tanks", they are all symbolized by a FT-17 (since it was the most successful of the class). Not sure if we'll bother adding unique art for those.

The lead designer was nice enough to explain why the tree was designed this way. In contrast WoT vomits a plethora of different tanks at their players, which makes sense for their game, but would make no sense in HoI because it is incredibly inefficient to mass-manufacture many different types of Heavy Tanks which all essentially fulfill the same role.

Also there are no Tiger (P), which cross out arguments under the title 'it's sandbox game' and 'it's all about our choices'. If I can't build tanks made by Porsche instead of Henschel, where is my choice?

In Hearts of Iron a 'Tiger' is a vehicle unit, built on production lines by factories, of which German Heavy tank units are comprised. If Tech Teams return to HoI4, you can have them designed by Porsche, Henschel or even IG Farben. Otherwise the design process will be abstracted. You can choose to modify some characteristics of this vehicle unit through research and development, but the parameters of the game are likely to be that specific design characteristics such as turret glacias or track width are abstracted.

- The only improvement of Tiger II could be E-75, not E-50. Even in WoT it is done correctly.

I don't know why you think the Tech tree of WoT should be cannon for HoI4, they are totally different games with a drastically different focus. The Tiger II was judged to be a failure from a Cost-Benefit POV. They were too unreliable, consumed too much fuel, too large of a target and monstrously expensive to build and maintain. Furthermore turret design and gunnery had technologically progressed to a degree where tanks didn't have to be 70-ton monsters to be able penetrate the thickest armor. So in the immediate post-war the Heavy Tank concept was largely abandoned and only a few more were built but they were massively outnumbered by the 'MBTs', which were the M-46, Centurion and T-54. The E-50 would've belonged to that class of vehicle, but I have a strong feeling that in the late 1940s plan for the E-75 would have gone the way of the American T29 .

- Weird links between Tigers and Panzer IV & Panther. I hope they don't mean that we can develop Tigers from medium tanks or vice versa. It's very hard to defense such idea.

I'm pretty sure those links mean that experience gained producing and using the Pz4 will help you research and give you experience to improve future Panthers and Tigers. This makes sense. The only alternative would be that Germany would only be able to gain knowledge of how to design a Tiger from their experience with Grosstraktors.

- Panzer I & II question. If I remember correctly, in game they're light tanks, just whole line is signed as 'medium'. Of course it's correct, Panzer I from the very beginning was created as light tank, quoting Panzer Tracts: Krupp had been selected by Wa.Prw.6 to work on the detailed design of a small light tracked tractor named Kleintraktor. Armament was to consist of a 2cm machinegun. Powered by an air-cooled engine rated at 60 metric horsepower, its total weight was not to exceed 3 metric tons. Kleintraktor was of course the earliest project of what was later called Panzer I.

The Pz1 and Pz2 are 'light' compared to the 'Grosstraktor' model prototypes which were never fielded. This purely cosmetic distinction is driving people crazy, it's probably going to be changed anyways.

- Whole line of medium tanks... Well, Panzer I/II/III/IV was more or less simultaneous projects, it's hard to say that one derived strictly from the second. Also Panther should have equivalents such as VK 3002 (DB) or T-25. It will be a nice sandbox thing.

Beyond the Pz3/Pz4 thing I've already covered, I'd rather not have the Tech tree cluttered with as many redundant vehicle prototypes as WoT. This is simply not where the focus of the game should be. Again you are free to design your tanks to be a close approximation to your favorite WoT tank, but there is no way that the VK 30.02 would ever be called "VK 30.02" if it had gotten beyond the prototype stage, therefore the vehicle is going to be called "Panther".

- VK 1602 question. The best thing, which can be done here, is adding Luchs (which was called also Panzerspähwagen II Ausf. L, it doesn't need to be included in Panzer II slot) and T-15, then leaving the choice to players.

Each slot represents a different chassis, or model, of vehicle. Giving the Luchs a separate slot would be redundant, as it is a very advanced variant of the Pz2. I think the majority of your misreading of HoI4's tech tree comes from WoT. That is in WoT different variants of the same vehicle are given different slots on that game's tech tree. That is generally not the case in this game.

I won't elaborate about the erroneous assignment of tanks to date, because it's the result of 'the same tree for all countries'.

Elaborating on this was basically your entire issue with the Liecht/Grosstraktor.
 
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I see you totally misunderstood my post.
More accurately from the POV of 1936, the development of armored troops in major countries will be different. It would be a poor HoI if we were not allowed to influence how our nation's weapons develop. I do not see why it should be destined that the USA must produce the Chaffee and that Germany must produce the Maus. Nor would it make sense for the AI to be stuck in the same path as history because in Paradox games history deviates from it's historical path. For example if Germany did not rush Tigers and Panthers to the Eastern Front in '42, the USSR would not have needed to rush the development of IS tanks in order to counter them. However we of course do expect the historical path of tank development to follow history to some degree.
Now we actually aren't allow to influence which tank we want to develop and when we have it. We have one heavy tank in 1934 and we can't have new one before 1941 (ok, we can develop Tiger from 1936 and have it in 1939 by putting horrendous effort in it, but at the same time we neglect other tanks). Second example: I want to have only medium tanks, but nah, before that I must develop totally useless for me light tanks, although historically Germans developed medium tanks regardless of light and even did it twice before Panzer III & IV (Grosstraktor and NbFz). With current tree (which is totally linear) I can't do this.

I nowhere wrote that countries are destined to produce only most known tanks. There were so many plans and prototypes that it is very easy to make some choices for each slot. I don't have to produce Maus, I should have option to build Loewe or E-100. Other examples for Tiger or Panther I wrote above.
You are obsessing over the date, as if it indicates when the vehicle must be created, it does not. In fact it is a staple of Paradox games that "ahead of time" development can give you a Tech advantage in exchange for a higher research cost. Tank development, like all research, is uneven between nations. The Leichtraktor and the Grosstraktor are were both prototypes developed years before the game starts. The fact that they were developed in parallel is rather incidental. As far as I can tell the Pz1 will be available from the start so it will never make sense to manufacture any Leichttraktors.

The reason those slots exist in those spots are to give other nations, who haven't started tank development by 1936, and place to start. The principle of creating a prototype of a smaller tracked vehicle like the Leichtraktor would be a requirement before fielding a large tracked vehicle like the Grosstraktor makes sense to me.
Wait, so players can change history before game starts? Developers' conjurations make Grosstrakter younger than Leichtertraktor? So far I thought that Paradox games are quite strongly 'embedded' in historical reality and players can create their own reality only after the beginning of game.

No excuses won't change the fact that Grosstraktor was developed before Leichtertraktor and just couldn't derive from that. Anyway, instead of Grosstraktor there should be NbFz (which has a lot more sense, both in terms of historicity and the 'heaviness' of the tank), but, as I linked above, for developers there are just one tank, so we have nothing to discuss :rolleyes:.
The reason the Grosstraktor slot exists is to give you an opportunity to manufacture ahistorical counterparts to the Char B, mainstays in World of Tanks, some of which you mention. None of these popular WoT vehicles were ever fielded in numbers. You have set in your mind that you want to build specific tank prototypes you know from WoT and that's fine, but it's up to you to develop them under the umbrella name 'Grosstraktor' which covers all German Heavy Tank development before the Tiger. WoT vomits a plethora of differnt tanks at their players, this would make no sense in HoI since in real life it doesn't make sense to mass-manufacture many different types Heavy Tanks which all essentially fulfill the same role.
If you read and understand my previous posts, you'll see that I think that WoT is one of the worst possible historical sources, so let me skip teasing related to this game.

I don't have problem with heavy tank slot in 1934 (it is justified), only with unjustified technological gap in heavy tanks between 1934 and 1941. Germans didn't conjure Tiger up, there were logical line of development, similarly Soviets didn't jump from T-35 to KV-2. Henschels projects are very closely related to development of Tiger, other countries also didn't forget about heavy tanks in late thirties, so including at least one heavy tank slot in, for example, 1939, makes sense.
In Hearts of Iron a 'Tiger' is a vehicle unit of which German Heavy tank units are comprised. They are built on production lines by factories. If Tech Teams return to HoI4, you can have them designed by Porsche, Henschel or even IG Farben. Otherwise the design process with be abstracted. You can choose to modify the characteristics of this vehicle unit through research and development, but the parameters of the game are likely to be that specific design characteristics such as turret glacias or track width are abstracted.
If name and icon of tank don't matter, then vehicle in that slot should be called 'heavy tank '41'. It won't give historical purists poke in the eye and developers won't lose their time on useless (or just, as defined by some people, flavour) research.
I don't know why you think the Tech tree of WoT should be cannon for HoI4, they are totally different games with a drastically different focus. The Tiger II was judged to be a failure from a Cost-Benefit POV. They were too unreliable, consumed too much fuel, too large of a target and monstrously expensive to build and maintain Furthermore turret design and gunnery had technologically progressed to a degree where tanks didn't have to be 70-ton monsters to be able penetrate the thickest armor. So in the immediate post-war the Heavy Tank concept was largely abandoned and only a few more were built but they were massively outnumbered by the 'MBTs', which were the M-46, Centurion and T-54. The E-50 would've belonged to that class of vehicle.
Again, I nowhere treat WoT as source, please, read my posts once more. And I don't need a lecture about how WWII tanks evolved into MBTs, I'm aware that heavy tanks were dead end. But Tigers weren't meant to be medium tank or pre-MBT. Path to E-50 should be possible only from Panthers and Tiger development should be ended in E-75. And again we have a proof of linearity of the tree. Player can't develop heavy tanks to late forties, because historically noone did it :p (which historically isn't true, just remember soviet T-10).
Beyond the Pz3/Pz4 thing I've already covered, I'd rather not have the Tech tree cluttered with as many redundant vehicle prototypes as WoT. This is simply not where the focus of the game should be. The Leopard covers mid/late war development of a hypothetical German light, and that's pretty good.
Oh, so ideas of detailed tree must be based on WoT. If someone want to have an expanded tree with multiple choices, then he definitely must be a WoT fanboy :p

Mid/late war development of german light tank is not only VK 1602 or Luchs. There were also PzKpfw 38(d) and (not completely confirmed, but quite likely) E-5. The best will be Luchs, VK 1602 was also development of Panzer II (Ausf. J).

Then what was your whole spiel about the Liecht/Grosstraktor about?
Do you see difference between 'LT is younger than GT, it shouldn't be on top of the tree' and 'because of rigid dates of each slot some tanks are available earlier than historical'?
 
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Again, I nowhere treat WoT as source, please, read my posts once more.

Okay.

The idea of identical trees for each country, when development of armored troops in major countries was so different, doesn't let for at least cursory copy of that differences.
I won't elaborate about the erroneous assignment of tanks to date, because it's the result of 'the same tree for all countries'.

You want a uniquely shaped and fixed tree for every country. Just like WoT has. For every country in the world? lol This is a very impractical and out of place idea for HoI.

Panzer I & II question. If I remember correctly, in game they're light tanks, just whole line is signed as 'medium'.

You insist on Pz1s and Pz2s can only be considered as lights, as they are balanced in WoT.

A weird gap between 'Grosstraktor wannabe NbFz' and Tiger. Tiger didn't come from NbFz, between them were many projects like Durchbruchwagen and Henschels' VK 3001, VK 6501 and finally VK 3601, which will be nice addition to german tree. Also there is no Tiger (P), which cross out arguments under the title 'it's sandbox game' and 'it's all about our choices'. If I can't build tanks made by Porsche instead of Henschel, where is my choice?

You want to clutter the tech tree with a bunch of prototypes and blueprint tanks straight out of WoT, even though out of necessity you aren't going to use most of them.

Also Panther should have equivalents such as VK 3002 (DB) or T-25. It will be a nice sandbox thing.

Listing tanks from WoT you want in HoI4 doesn't help your case.

And I don't need a lecture about how WWII tanks evolved into MBTs, I'm aware that heavy tanks were dead end.

So why are you pushing for an E-75 to lead from the Tiger II? Could it be because this is how it works in WoT?

- The only improvement of Tiger II could be E-75, not E-50. Even in WoT it is done correctly.

Kind of hard to spin that any other way.

I see you totally misunderstood my post.

I think I got it. I'm sorry you don't understand that HoI4 should not work like World of Tanks where the player unlocks specific vehicles over the course of playing.

Now we actually aren't allow to influence which tank we want to develop and when we have it.

And you don't understand why you can't choose to start development of the Tiger II from 01 JAN 1936 or why such an ability might effect the balance of the game. Believe that I bear you no malice when I say you really don't understand the Tech Tree as it is presented to us, as what appears to me to be a list of chassis which we will then attach other components to.
 
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