Why did Europe rise to the top prior to 1700

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The Republic of Genoa was at that point in time little more than a loose organization that provided some kind of legal cover to the banking, commercial or piratical activities of its main oligarchic families (Pallavicinis, Grimaldis, Dorias, Spinolas, etc.) who would have lended money to the French king whether Lodovico Sforza wanted it or not (as if bankers have ever been short of ideas to cheat on political leaders).

Hell no. Sforza had spent he past ten years imposing himself on Genoa. Believe me, after 1488, you couldn't fart in Genoa without Ludovico's permission.

You seem to forget the 1494-95 French intervention was concocted and arranged by Sforza already in 1493. It was his plan. This didn't emanate from France. French court was against it. It was Sforza's plan, and Charles's folly to be suckered into it.

It had been Venice's idea earlier - back in the 1480s, when all of Italy was allied against her, an alliance concocted by Naples. Venice wanted the Angevin claim resurrected to punish Naples. Don't forget the rightful Angevin heir after 1481 was not Charles but Rene II of Lorraine. The Pope, who swung to and fro through the 1480s between Venice and Naples, eventually ratified Rene's claim. The only difficulty is that Rene II was descended by female line, and while this posed no problem for inheriting the Angevin claim on Naples, he could not inherit the Angevin territories in France (Anjou, Provence, etc.) by Salic Law. So he didn't have the territorial resources in France and Anne of Beaujeau didn't allow French troops to leave in his service. Still, Venice brought Rene II to Italy immediately, made him a commander in Venetian service and deployed him with an army in the Neapolitan highlands during the proxy wars of the late 1480s.

The break between Sforza and Naples in 1493, led to Sforza's alliance with Venice and a renewal of the request to release French arms for Rene against Naples. But the half-wit Charles VIII was now on the throne, fantasizing about launching a Crusade to recover the Holy Land, and wanted the Angevin claim for himself, to serve as a forward base and because it came together with the titular "King of Jerusalem" feather for his cap. Sforza arranged it all in 1493 - his brother, Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, dominated the papacy during Borgia's early years, and had no trouble re-writing the Angevin claim in Charles VIII favor, and forging the anti-Neapolitan alliance to clear the way. It was Ludovico Sforza himself who issued the invitation to Charles, arranged the financing, and set out the itinerary.

(Ludovico also put the Genoese fleet at French disposal, seized Leonardo da Vinci's bronze to melt into cannons for the French, had his sister block the passages of the Neapolitan army coming up through Romagna, and had his brother deploy the Colonna to seize the ports and strongpoints of Rome. Sforza was very active.)

Don't confuse this with "projecting" French power. It was just Milan-Venice hiring the French king as a condottiere to do their dirty work.

And when they got what they wanted, they "fired" him and ran him out of Italy.

The main problem of kings and princes in that timeframe was not "real" resources. They had lots of them, and to top it all, they had absolute power over them, usually in the form of the main productive resource before the Industrial Revolution: land and blood (the peasants needed to till it). What they were always in short supply was liquid assets that would allow them precisely (in your words) to project that power beyond their borders. In a monetary system tied to gold and silver, physical money was always in short supply, and that was a constant headache for monarchs.

Oh, that is true. Which goes back to someone's earlier point about the money-naval nexus. It comes together.

Resources don't mean jack without money - in the old world or the modern. A heap of bricks will never become a house until you have cash in hand to hire labor and put work in motion.

Cashless economies - and continental land powers were largely cashless - had to resort to feudal dues to mobilize without cash. But feudal claims have limits. They can be called for a max of four months and usually come grumbling. Being dependent on mercenaries is often a lot safer for the crown than being dependent on feudal lords, who have their own decentralizing agendas, whom you have to ingratiate and please and are powerful enough to disobey. It often means giving them power, privileges and often rewarding them with chunks of the royal demesne as payment. We see the setbacks of this system baldly in 15th C. France, where crown had precious little land left, having given it away to feudal magnates over the years and they were far from loyal. During the Hundred Years War, there were periods where the King of France had no army at all, save for Scottish auxiliaries, and he had to give away Touraine, one of his last few counties, just to make them stay on.

Venice buying military with cash is little different than France buying military with land. Both are unreliable means of raising arms. The difference is Venetian coffers can be renewed, but land, once given, is gone.

The only way to renew land is to recover what you gave away - that is, inquiring into landholdings and use some lame excuse to deprive the lord of it. You can see the danger that is fraught with.

The resources of a kingdom are meaningless if they cannot be mobilized into service. And mobilization always costs. It costs cash. And where cashless, it costs power and land.

Naval powers tend to be cash powers. That allows centralization. They have nowhere near the internal difficulties, or difficulties in mobilization of resources, as land powers do. And can strike easier and faster. That all goes hand in hand.

You earlier relied on the "strong king" logic. You miss the connection. Land powers don't fail to project because they lack a strong king. They lack a strong king because they are land powers.

Saying that the Republic of Venice was as powerful (or more) as the Kingdom of France during the two first Italian wars is like saying that nowadays Luxembourg or Switzerland are more powerful than (for example) Russia because they have banks and money.

If they use that cash to project power, the answer is yes. As it happens, Switzerland seems to be a little more peace-minded. Maybe only because it is landlocked and navy-less. :p

In the 15th C., when Venice was projecting its power on three continents, the King of France's power was limited to the Duchy of Berry.
 
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Hell no. Sforza had spent he past ten years imposing himself on Genoa. Believe me, after 1488, you couldn't fart in Genoa without Ludovico's permission.

You seem to forget the 1495 French intervention was concocted and arranged by Sforza already in 1493. It was his plan. This didn't emanate from France. French court was against it. It was Sforza's plan, and Charles's folly to be suckered into it.

It had been Venice's idea earlier - back in the 1480s, when all of Italy was allied against her, an alliance concocted by Naples. Venice wanted the Angevin claim resurrected to punish Naples. Don't forget the rightful Angevin heir after 1481 was not Charles but Rene II of Lorraine. The Pope, who swung to and fro through the 1480s between Venice and Naples, eventually ratified Rene's claim. The only difficulty is that Rene II was descended by female line, and while this posed no problem for inheriting the Angevin claim on Naples, he could not inherit the Angevin territories in France (Anjou, Provence, etc.) by Salic Law. So he didn't have the territorial resources in France and Anne of Beaujeau didn't allow French troops to leave in his service. Still, Venice brought Rene II to Italy immediately, made him a commander in Venetian service and deployed him with an army in the Neapolitan highlands during the proxy wars of the late 1480s.

The break between Sforza and Naples in 1493, led to Sforza's alliance with Venice and a renewal of the request to release French arms for Rene against Naples. But the half-wit Charles VIII was now on the throne, fantasizing about launching a Crusade to recover the Holy Land, and wanted the Angevin claim for himself, to serve as a forward base and because it came together with the titular "King of Jerusalem" feather for his cap. Sforza arranged it all in 1493 - his brother, Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, dominated the papacy during Borgia's early years, and had no trouble re-writing the Angevin claim in Charles VIII favor, and forging the anti-Neapolitan alliance to clear the way. It was Sforza himself who issued the invitation to Charles, arranged the financing, and set out the itinerary.

Don't confuse this with "projecting" French power. It was just Milan-Venice hiring the French king as a condottiere to do their dirty work.

Lodovico Sforza's great (and incredibly stupid and short-sighted for himself and the other Italian states) idea of inviting the French to intervene in Italian affairs was, as already Macchiavelli and other Italian personalities of the era realized, akin to let the fox into the chickens' coop.

And it was so disastrous because he thought in exactly the same terms that you are using here: that he could play games with the French as he could do with a common condottiero or with a band of Swiss mercenaries, which ultimately shows how extremely Italo-centric and limited in scope his knowledge of European affairs was. A condottiero or a band of mercenaries would be pretty powerless to act against him if he decided to betray them, but the French did not depend on him for anything (except maybe for moral support and to supply the French king with gardeners, cooks and artists to embellish his châteaus) and would be perfectly capable of exacting revenge on him.

Well, it turned out that he couldn't, and that he'd bitten far more that he could chew. The 1494 French invasion shocked everybody, including Sforza and the Serenissima, by how easily the French army walked across the peninsula, taking possession of Naples after crushing all attempts of the Neapolitan king of resisting and cowering the Republic of Florence and Pope Alexander VI to allow his army free access theough their dominions.

And then, when the two behemoths-in-the-shadow Milan and Venice realized that they'd made a mistake, they betrayed their former French allies and arranged an anti-French League of Venice in 1495, and even then the army of the League (that should have been a killing machine according to you) was unable to beat the retreating French army at Fornovo, even when Charles VIII had weakened it substantially leaving garrisons in its wake.

What the 1494-5 war showed was how vulnerable Italian states were, how useless Charles VIII was as a diplomat and politician, and how treacherous Italian politics were. Charles VIII's death childless (probably one of the most idiotic deaths in history :p) was a disaster for Lodovico, as the new (Charles VIII's cousin and until then duke of Orléans) king Louis XII had both a personal grudge against Lodovico (for his duplicity during the former war) and dynastical claims on the Duchy of Milan. And he happened also to be a better diplomat than Charles VIII had been, taking special care to isolate his prey before attacking.

What had begun as one of many machiavellan politic power games between Italian dynasts and Charles VIII's outdated dreams of crusade degenerated into a long series of esxtremely destructive wars that devastated Italy turning it into a battleground for the two most powerful monarchies in western Europe, and all because that Sforza (and to a lesse degree the Venetians) did not realize that times had changed and that now they had to act carefully when dealing with the big players. This doesn't show either shewdness nor far-sightedness on Sforza and the Venetians' side, what it shows is provincialism and lack of contact with reality.

Oh, that is true. Which goes back to someone's earlier point about the money-naval nexus. It comes together.

Resources don't mean jack without money - in the old world or the modern. A heap of bricks will never become a house until you have cash in hand to hire labor and put work in motion.

Nope. If I can coerce in some way a bunch of guys to have the house built, I'll have it with zero cash money spent. Or how do you think the Egyptians managed to build their pyramids and temples without cash? According to that theory, there must have been no architectural works before the invention of cash money.

Cashless economies - and continental land powers were largely cashless - had to resort to feudal dues to mobilize without cash. But feudal claims have limits. They can be called for a max of four months and usually come grumbling. Being dependent on mercenaries is often a lot safer for the crown than being dependent on feudal lords, who have their own decentralizing agendas, whom you have to ingratiate and please and are powerful enough to disobey. It often means giving them power, privileges and often rewarding them with chunks of the royal demesne as payment. We see the setbacks of this system baldly in 15th C. France, where crown had precious little land left, having given it away to feudal magnates over the years and they were far from loyal. During the Hundred Years War, there were periods where the King of France had no army at all, save for Scottish auxiliaries, and he had to give away Touraine, one of his last few counties, just to make them stay on.

Venice buying military with cash is little different than France buying military with land. Both are unreliable means of raising arms. The difference is Venetian coffers can be renewed, but land, once given, is gone.

The only way to renew land is to recover what you gave away - that is, inquiring into landholdings and use some lame excuse to deprive the lord of it. You can see the danger that is fraught with.

The resources of a kingdom are meaningless if they cannot be mobilized into service. And mobilization always costs. It costs cash. And where cashless, it costs power and land.

Naval powers tend to be cash powers. That allows centralization. They have nowhere near the internal difficulties, or difficulties in mobilization of resources, as land powers do. And can strike easier and faster. That all goes hand in hand.

You earlier relied on the "strong king" logic. You miss the connection. Land powers don't fail to project because they lack a strong king. They lack a strong king because they are land powers.



If they use that cash to project power, the answer is yes. As it happens, Switzerland seems to be a little more peace-minded. Maybe only because it is landlocked and navy-less. :p

Cash was very important in late medieval and early modern Europe; as you've written it was an important tool to help centralize power, but as cash was tied to the physical availability of gold and silver, which were in extremely low supply in Europe until the discovery of America, getting enough of it was always a headache. But I repeat: then as now, cash is not all. It's not even the most important factor. The Republics of Venice, Genoa and Florence rolled in cash, and especially the Papacy also rolled in it, but neither of them was a really big player in European power politics (well, maybe the Pope was, but not because of the cash). Probably the most productive thing that they could do with it when dealing with European politics was use it for bribes, as paying protection money, as the Venetians discovered in their deals with the Ottomans, is not an advisable long-term solution.

Bear in mind that there was no industry and no technological advance, which meant that armies had not a really significative edge over their foes due to an ability to purchase and maintain fancier armament. Venetian soldiers used the same weapons and armour as their Ottoman, Spanish or French foes, and in these circumstances, the advantadge goes to the side with superior numbers, leadership, training and experience. And Venice rarely enjoyed any of these, except at sea were they managed to retain a certain qualitative edge for a long time.

I realize that in our times there's a general rejection over taking seriously the personal level of History. We prefer big, encompassing theories that "explain" all aspects of historical events and evolutions. We have Hegel to thank for that.

But feudal and monarchical systems are personal per se, on an intrinsical level. Simply put, any autocratic system can only be as good as the person who's at its head. With a good leader, the system can be expected to work reasonably well, but if biological lottery fails, everything goes down the drain.

In autocratic systems of a decentralized nature like medieval feudal states were, that was even more true, because kingdoms were in essence divided into many "mini-kingdoms" each of them with an autocrat at its head. And all the relations between them and with the king worked on a personal level: a feudal lord was loyal to the person of the king, not to the monarchy itself (those folks were quite bad with abstract conceptualizations like that), and thus what kind of a ruler a king was, on a personal level, was absolutely essential for the whole system.

During the first decades of the XIV century, France was the strongest kingdom of Europe, thanks to a succession of strong, able rulers by direct male line (a biological rarity) that culminated in the person of king Philip IV of France. But after him, things began to unravel: his three male sons, incredible as it may seem, died one after the other without children, and then the crown passed to the count of Valois, who had been uncle to the three previous kings and brother of Philip IV. But of course, that succesion was disputed by several nobles and by the king of England, himself a descendant of Philip IV by female line. The new French king was unable to control the situation and France descended into chaos, amid civilian strife and English invasions. By the end of the XIV century, another able ruler Charles V was able to recover all the losses of the previous decades and restore France's position in Europe....only to leave as his heir a mentally ill person, Charles VI of France, under whom everything went to hell again. And by the way, the same happened in England half a century later when king Henry VI began showing signs of mental illness, with the nobility plunging the kingdom into civil war. Castile and the Crown of Aragon also went through similar processes, and the Great Interregnum of the Holy Roman Empire in the XIII century is also a good example of what happened when feudal kingdoms were left rudderless.

What existed in western Europe during a substantial part of the XIV and XV centuries was a power vacuum that would not last forever, as the Republic of Venice and Lodovico Sforza apparently thought, although the rise of the Ottoman empire in the east should have at least given the Venetians food for thought.

In the 15th C., when Venice was projecting its power on three continents, the King of France's power was limited to the Duchy of Berry.

And to all the other feudal territories that would quickly (and effectively did) return to acknowledging the French king as soon as he (Charles VII) decided to get his act together and start acting as such. And by the way, the French crown also controlled substantial territories in the south of France, the old lands of the counts of Toulouse and viscounts of Carcassone, which had been direct royal dominions since the XIII century. And the duchy of Bourbon acknowledged Charles as king. And he also controlled the Dauphiné as a personal fiefdom. And the powerful Anjous also acknowledged him as such (he was married to an Anjou wife after all), which means that he also controlled Provence and the Anjou. Oh, and the counts of Foix and Armagnac also acknowledged him. Turns out that he was actually in direct or indirect control of half of France.
 
Hell no. Sforza had spent he past ten years imposing himself on Genoa. Believe me, after 1488, you couldn't fart in Genoa without Ludovico's permission.

More evidence of how terrifyingly dominant the Italian merchant republics were in that period.
 
Lodovico Sforza's great (and incredibly stupid and short-sighted for himself and the other Italian states) idea of inviting the French to intervene in Italian affairs was, as already Macchiavelli and other Italian personalities of the era realized, akin to let the fox into the chickens' coop.

Not sure what you mean. It worked out quite well for Sforza. He was about to be deposed by the Neapolitans in 1494. His days were numbered. The French intervention stopped that. Neapolitan forces crumbled, Naples's allies (Florence & the Pope) got punished, he gets his duchy and the French leave. Worked out fine.

It also turned out well enough for Venice. She got several ports in Apulia out of it (Brindisi, Otranto, etc.) She was more keen on destroying Naples, the perennial ringleader against Venice in Italy. If anything, the Venetians felt Charles hadn't gone far enough - e.g. they had also hoped Florence would be dismembered permanently - they were disappointed Charles let them off so easily. The only thing that worried Venice was Charles's proposed Crusade - east Mediterranean was their turf. But the French were kicked out, so that was not a problem.

Sforza short-sightedness was not realizing that he was always next on Venice's target list, that the alliance of 1494 was one of convenience so long as Naples was an enemy to both. Now that Naples was dealt with, Venice had no reason for Sforza anymore. So they brought the French king for round deux in 1499, drove Sforza out, and took the eastern half of his duchy. Worked out fine for them then too.

French kings played their condottiere roles according to script.

What Sforza didn't expect was the Venetians double-crossing him. They were the ones who really did him in (although the Venetians blame Sforza for double-crossing them first, when he agreed to peace with France in 1495).


And it was so disastrous because he thought in exactly the same terms that you are using here: that he could play games with the French as he could do with a common condottiero or with a band of Swiss mercenaries, which ultimately shows how extremely Italo-centric and limited in scope his knowledge of European affairs was. A condottiero or a band of mercenaries would be pretty powerless to act against him if he decided to betray them, but the French did not depend on him for anything (except maybe for moral support and to supply the French king with gardeners, cooks and artists to embellish his châteaus) and would be perfectly capable of exacting revenge on him.

Er...Charles depended quite a bit on him in 1494. Sforza was quite active with cash, men, strategy and positions. Sforza lost interest in the French expedition after Gian Galeazzo died. The casus belli was gone, and as far as he was concerned, he didn't need the French anymore.

And the army of Louis XII in 1499 was 100% dependent on Venetian cash and their own simultaneous military invasion from the east.

Don't dismiss it that lightly.

Well, it turned out that he couldn't, and that he'd bitten far more that he could chew. The 1494 French invasion shocked everybody, including Sforza and the Serenissima, by how easily the French army walked across the peninsula, taking possession of Naples after crushing all attempts of the Neapolitan king of resisting and cowering the Republic of Florence and Pope Alexander VI to allow his army free access theough their dominions.

Overstatement. The initial battle of Rappallo - the only confrontation - was a little eyebrow-raising. Although the atrocities there were carried out primarily by Swiss mercenaries, a well-known item in Italy. But, yes, Orleans did put his ugly personal touch by massacring the POWs.

Charles's French army - that is, the one from the demesnes you are hailing - didn't do jack. Yes, it was a large army - estimated to be the largest French army assembled since the 7th Crusade of 1250s - so the size was a little frightening. But it didn't actually do anything.

The crumbling of Neapolitan army was primarily due to Sforza's strategy. It was he who had Charles take an unusual early crossing of the Apennines and follow the westerly route through Tuscany, rather than the expected one down the Aemilian Way, where the bulk of the Neapolitan-Florentine army was ready and waiting for him. It was his sister that closed the passes to trap them in Romagna while Charles crossed over and traipsed through empty Tuscany. They side-stepped them entirely and made their retreat back to Naples impossible. Outflanked and their retreat cut, the Neapolitan army panicked and crumbled. It was this strategic stroke, Sforza's strategy, not the king of France's non-existent reputation, that did them in.

(And it was Sforza's brother, of course, that had done the bulk of the work in Rome. He deployed the Colonna to take all the strongpoints in Rome (pope was reduced to Sant' Angelo), well before the French got there. And then sent the Colonna invading the Neapolitan Abruzzi while Charles was still cooling his heels in Rome.)

So Sforza had no reason to be at all impressed with the French. They were just dumb oxen he was steering. He knew who was the actual author of the victory. They had shown nothing that would make him fear taking them on.

The only surprising thing maybe was the magnitude of the Neapolitan panic. It wasn't really expected to be that dramatic. But hey, it occasionally happens. Just ask the French army in 1940. :p

There was admittedly a second French atrocity after entering Naples - the massacre of Monte San Giovanni - which was shocking and led to the desertion of what remained of the Neapolitan army. But most of it had already evaporated before that. There was little point in continuing. The Colonna blitz through the Abruzzi was already set to outflank them, so they had already lost the strategic initiative. Any resistance would be just be heroics for heroics sake.

French reputation was not as soldiers but as plunderers and massacrers. They had not actually shown anything in the field or done any fighting. The only confrontation was at the outset at Rappallo (which was mainly Swiss mercs plus Genoese militia anyway). It was otherwise a big vacation for the French rank-and-file. They got to visit Renaissance Italy, plunder villages and taste the local cuisine and rape local women and do next-to-no fighting. Usual mercenary stuff.

Now, Renaissance writers of Florence may babble at a "disaster" - for them, maybe, as they temporarily lost Pisa and had to go through the purges of Savonarola. But for the rest of Italy, things were almost exactly as they were before. Sforza was still in Milan, the Aragonese back in Naples, Pope was still there, and Venice was stronger than ever. Nothing much changed.

The adventures of the king of France was a saturday morning children's picnic compared to the descents of the kings of Germany in prior centuries. Admittedly it had been over a century since the last foreign monarch set foot in Italy, so they might have forgotten how such things usually played out. But there was more apprehension before the expedition than regret after it.

What had begun as one of many machiavellan politic power games between Italian dynasts and Charles VIII's outdated dreams of crusade degenerated into a long series of esxtremely destructive wars that devastated Italy turning it into a battleground for the two most powerful monarchies in western Europe, and all because that Sforza (and to a lesse degree the Venetians) did not realize that times had changed and that now they had to act carefully when dealing with the big players. This doesn't show either shewdness nor far-sightedness on Sforza and the Venetians' side, what it shows is provincialism and lack of contact with reality.

Not until later. 16th C. was indeed destructive to Italy. But 15th C. was splendid, and the 1490s French adventures were largely ignorable.

Venice's heyday was over by the time the foreign monarchs got seriously involved in Italy. The Ottomans had broken her naval power, the Portuguese siphoned her cash flows. Those were the real blows, those reduced her. But the French expeditions of the 1490s did not affect that. Indeed, it helped Venice, compensating their naval losses with territorial gains.

The 15th C. was Venice's century. Not the 16th. She had lost her naval supremacy and was waning.

But viewed in the 1490s, looked at from everywhere, Venice was a power whereas France was not a power. France had not been a power for the past two centuries. She had barely been a country, dismembered and occupied as she was through much of it. The king of France was a joke inside his country, and outside it. France was regarded throughout Europe - not merely Italy - as a mere source of mercenaries. So there's nothing really off-script.

The muscular 16th C. Renaissance monarchies of France (and Spain and England, etc.) were novelties, complete breaks with the past. Don't confuse Francis I with Charles VIII. They inhabited different eras.

(And this 16th C. muscle, let us note, depended primarily on cash - much of it Italian cash.)

Nope. If I can coerce in some way a bunch of guys to have the house built, I'll have it with zero cash money spent.

Coerce? Coerce me? You and what army? Oh, that's right. I'm your army. Ha, ha ha. :p

Or how do you think the Egyptians managed to build their pyramids and temples without cash? According to that theory, there must have been no architectural works before the invention of cash money.

They were free laborers, not coerced. They were paid wages - albeit wages in kind, in commodity or credit form.

That said, even if you could coerce them, that won't get you far. Soldiers need to eat to remain alive. Either you pay them cash wages, so they can procure their own food, or you feed them yourself. If the latter, then you have to carry around grain stores with you - grain which has to be bought and paid for from merchants, moved by ships, carts and laborers. And they need be paid. Or are you going to coerce them too?

Granted, Medieval monarchs could get some credit-in-advance from their soldiers by promises of plunder where they roamed. But promises don't feed bellies. And at the first bite of hunger, the army will start dissolving.

Cash was very important in late medieval and early modern Europe; as you've written it was an important tool to help centralize power, but as cash was tied to the physical availability of gold and silver, which were in extremely low supply in Europe until the discovery of America, getting enough of it was always a headache.

Actually, silver was in OK supply. Had its ups and downs, and 15th C. was a bit of a down (hadn't had a silver strike in a while). But remember most of the global silver supply came from Europe - it's where most silver mines were located. Problem is much of it was usually siphoned abroad by trade (heh-heh Venetians again; Asians didn't buy western European goods; they wanted cash on the nail, silver at a premium. Venetians were experts at tracking down every loose silver coin in Europe and shipping it east.)

But I repeat: then as now, cash is not all. It's not even the most important factor. The Republics of Venice, Genoa and Florence rolled in cash, and especially the Papacy also rolled in it, but neither of them was a really big player in European power politics (well, maybe the Pope was, but not because of the cash). Probably the most productive thing that they could do with it when dealing with European politics was use it for bribes, as paying protection money, as the Venetians discovered in their deals with the Ottomans, is not an advisable long-term solution.

Disagree. Cash buys everything. It buys armies, it buys supplies, it buys loyalties. Without it, you have a much, much harder time mobilizing. As every military historian, ancient or modern, will tell you, success in war usually boils down to who had more cash.

I don't know how you're defining "big players", but in the 14th-15th C., they were pretty darn big players. Having a hard time thinking of anybody else who could really be called that.

During the first decades of the XIV century, France was the strongest kingdom of Europe, thanks to a succession of strong, able rulers by direct male line (a biological rarity) that culminated in the person of king Philip IV of France.

French monarchy had a good 13th C. on account of a lot of new royal demesne land recovered from the English Plantagenets, which they could distribute to loyalists. By early 1300s, that had run out, although I will credit (or discredit) French kings of this time, esp. Phillip IV, for coming up with some very innovative ways of raising cash - inventing taxes (most ancien regime taxes come from this era), expropriating Templars and Jews, selling freedom to the serfs, titles to nobles, stealing church monies, etc. And, of course, debasement after debasement after debasement.

Mr. Philip IV Was very good at squeezing gold out of unusual places. A master alchemist. :D

Still, for all that, the merchants of Flemish towns still kicked his royal army's ass. If you are putting him as an example of a "strong king", you can imagine how poor "weak kings" would have fared. :p

Blaming the decline of the French monarchy on scandalous daughters-in-law makes for a good novel. But the real story is simply that they were broke.

They'd get an occasional boomlet when some great lord's line died out and his land reverted to the crown, giving him a new chunk of new land to distribute (Salic Law was invented for a reason). But these were intermittent and not predictable.
But feudal and monarchical systems are personal per se, on an intrinsical level. Simply put, any autocratic system can only be as good as the person who's at its head. With a good leader, the system can be expected to work reasonably well, but if biological lottery fails, everything goes down the drain.

In autocratic systems of a decentralized nature like medieval feudal states were, that was even more true, because kingdoms were in essence divided into many "mini-kingdoms" each of them with an autocrat at its head. And all the relations between them and with the king worked on a personal level: a feudal lord was loyal to the person of the king, not to the monarchy itself (those folks were quite bad with abstract conceptualizations like that), and thus what kind of a ruler a king was, on a personal level, was absolutely essential for the whole system.

In the Middle Ages? Heck no. Maybe after the Renaissance, when kings acquired some sort of royal majesty, above the nobility. But in the Middle Ages, king was just one of their own. Feudal lords disobeyed and rebelled at the drop of a hat.
Nobles were managed by bribes or threats. Bribes in the form of new lands, extra powers, royal property (tolls, castles, etc.), tax exemptions. Threats in the form of inquiries into landholdings, inheritances, town charters and urban militias, supervision by relatives, transfer of powers to royal bailiffs & judges, and other royal tricks to undermine them.

the Great Interregnum of the Holy Roman Empire in the XIII century is also a good example of what happened when feudal kingdoms were left rudderless.

They weren't "rudderless". The helmsmen sold the oars. The conflict between Hohenstaufen and Welf was extraordinarily expensive. Each rival king distributed land from the royal demesne and their home duchies to acquire loyalists for their cause. The Welf power base in the Duchy of Saxony crumbled into pieces, and the Duchies of Franconia and Swabia dissolved entirely and were given away acre by acre. After a half-century of this give-away bonanza, German kings didn't have a royal bucket left to piss in.

What existed in western Europe during a substantial part of the XIV and XV centuries was a power vacuum that would not last forever, as the Republic of Venice and Lodovico Sforza apparently thought, although the rise of the Ottoman empire in the east should have at least given the Venetians food for thought.

Things weren't very different 11th, 12th and 13th. There's always been a power vaccum. Hinterland kingdoms were always pretty limited - spending most of the time fighting inside themselves, in squabbles between nobles, or over some minor border bishopric or other.

The only powers who had any projection outside themselves have always tended to be naval/cash powers. Italian maritime republics, little more than fishing villages at the start, had been aggressively active since the 11-12th C., clawing back the sea from the Saracens; and Normans, and before them Vikings and Varangians, as small as they were, nonetheless trampled over land powers, carving out kingdoms and empires of their own where they pleased.

The only land-based kingdom with "outside" influence was arguably the Holy Roman Empire - but even that was very limited; he spent most of his time fighting internal wars; Italy, ostensibly his own kingdom, was effectively beyond his grasp.)

And don't bother citing the Crusades. Make no mistake: they were an Italian enterprise - with dumb ultramontane muscle, but mainly serving their goals. European kingdoms didn't stay involved in the overseas Levantine Crusader states, they were independent, too distant to communicate with, much less manage. But the Italian consuls and colonies were always there, in continuous close communication and coordination with home ports. and managing everything.

Fact is, the history of Medieval European kingdoms are mostly internal histories. Unless you're dealing directly with the history of France, or the history of Spain, or whatever, you don't have to pay attention to any of them. They simply didn't matter much to anyone outside them. Anyone who studies French history may be confused at the proposition that French king wasn't a power. But anyone who doesn't focus on that, anyone who studies Medieval German history or Italian history or Spanish history, would hardly notice France existed at all.

And to all the other feudal territories that would quickly (and effectively did) return to acknowledging the French king as soon as he (Charles VII) decided to get his act together and start acting as such. And by the way, the French crown also controlled substantial territories in the south of France, the old lands of the counts of Toulouse and viscounts of Carcassone, which had been direct royal dominions since the XIII century. And the duchy of Bourbon acknowledged Charles as king. And he also controlled the Dauphiné as a personal fiefdom. And the powerful Anjous also acknowledged him as such (he was married to an Anjou wife after all), which means that he also controlled Provence and the Anjou. Oh, and the counts of Foix and Armagnac also acknowledged him. Turns out that he was actually in direct or indirect control of half of France.

Acknowledging someone as French king is a minor matter. He can change his mind tomorrow.

Point is his lands aren't royal lands. King can't raise armies there, can't distribute it, etc. Only the duke can. And if the bulk of your army depends on the will of the Duke of Bourbon, then Bourbon can name his price. That makes you a weak king, no matter what your personality type.

Charles VIII can give thanks to a several very lucky deaths of big magnates without heirs. And, no less importantly, to his big sister for having a kingdom to inherit. If Orleans had his way, France would have been dismembered again before he came of age.

More evidence of that terrifying naval power the Italian merchant republics commanded.

*shrug*. Sforza was elected.

Genoese were having the usual family squabble, Adorno vs. Fregosi (various branches) and couldn't decide among themselves. Preferred to elect an impartial outsider rather than a biased insider. Pretty customary in most Italian republics. Of course, Sforza was a bigger bunny than the usual outsider. But the running alternative was a Fregosi archbishop, and he was much too powerful even for his own family members to swallow. (his branch, BTW, ran the Neapolitan navy and were the ones that got massacred at Rappallo).
 
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Abdul, you seem very knowledgeable on naval expansion, trade and geopolitics in the late medieval / early modern period.

Would you be able to suggest some books? I'm particularly interested in the relationship between the sea republics and the oriental states, as well as the rise of Portugal and the expansion in the Atlantic and to Africa and the conflict between Iberians and the Ottomans in the Mediterranean and in North Africa.

I can suggest a few from the Ottoman side.

For the interplay of Venetian-Ottoman-Mamluk relations in the lead up to the Ottoman Conquest of Egypt, Ottoman Seapower and Levantine Diplomacy in the Age of Discovery.

On Ottoman power projection, diplomacy, and intervention in the Indian Ocean, The Ottoman Age of Exploration.

The Maghreb's role in the Ottoman-Iberian naval conflict of the 16th Century, The Forgotten Frontier.

And, indispensably, Gunpowder and Galleys: Changing Technology and Mediterranean Warfare at Sea in the 16th Century. Guilmartin's famous study of the way that the technical capabilities of galleys determined the nature of warfare between Venice, Spain, and the Ottoman Empire in the 16th Century.
 
I can suggest a few from the Ottoman side.

For the interplay of Venetian-Ottoman-Mamluk relations in the lead up to the Ottoman Conquest of Egypt, Ottoman Seapower and Levantine Diplomacy in the Age of Discovery.

On Ottoman power projection, diplomacy, and intervention in the Indian Ocean, The Ottoman Age of Exploration.

The Maghreb's role in the Ottoman-Iberian naval conflict of the 16th Century, The Forgotten Frontier.

And, indispensably, Gunpowder and Galleys: Changing Technology and Mediterranean Warfare at Sea in the 16th Century. Guilmartin's famous study of the way that the technical capabilities of galleys determined the nature of warfare between Venice, Spain, and the Ottoman Empire in the 16th Century.

Awesome, thank you sir.
 
Europe wasn't ruling the world by prior 1700s at all, they were however trading everywhere. The thing with Europeans was their changing social structure which made them chase trade routes everywhere. Towards the end of 18th century they achieved great power, and by they I refer to North-West reformed Europeans.
 
Europe wasn't ruling the world by prior 1700s at all, they were however trading everywhere. The thing with Europeans was their changing social structure which made them chase trade routes everywhere. Towards the end of 18th century they achieved great power, and by they I refer to North-West reformed Europeans.
And the French... and the Spanish held more of the world than anyone in the late 18th century (even if not as powerful as the British or French).
 
"Reformed europeans"? How about the fact that the biggest colonies were under catholic powers?
 
"Reformed europeans"? How about the fact that the biggest colonies were under catholic powers?

In terms of economic and trade relations, Spain itself was basically a European (particularly French) colony after the latter 17th century. They had a huge empire yet were never prepared to establish a system of economic dependency over their empire, and that role was taken up by other European states instead. France itself was strong and had economic interests across the world, but as we all know the French system was not functional in the long term and collapsed at the end of the 18th century.
 
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In terms of economic and trade relations, Spain itself was basically a European (particularly French) colony after the latter 17th century. They had a huge empire yet were never prepared to establish a system of economic dependency over their empire, and that role was taken up by other European states instead. France itself was strong and had economic interests across the world, but as we all know the French system was not functional in the long term and collapsed at the end of the 18th century.

As did the Dutch Republic, the epitome of reformed success. And the French sure bounced back a whole lot faster and harder than the Dutch did.
 
And the French... and the Spanish held more of the world than anyone in the late 18th century (even if not as powerful as the British or French).
"Reformed europeans"? How about the fact that the biggest colonies were under catholic powers?


The landmass does not equate to "power over most of the world" though.
Most of the world was in Asia(actually I am not much educated on population records of American since most natives died??) and there were many "civilizations" that were functioning in themselves.

Landmass is not a factor that ties these peoples. What made Europe actually have control over the rest of the world was capitalist relations which absorbed the pre-capitalist countries in a sort of -dependent-, peripheral context making the metropoles the centre which the periphery depends economically and hence politically to a great extend in case the society has switched into this new mode of production(in their particular roles in global division of labor which depended on the nature of the metropole which enforced it, Spanish colonial structures and Brits and French differed greatly)....therefore the phenomena of "dominance" we can talk about comes to be a thing of the 19th century. 18th century is when Europe had the edge but not the dominance. Ottomans, China and India(perhaps India is more debatable due to different diplomatic context there) were subjugated pretty much in the 19th century(in fact, more so in early 20th century since the changing structures of the developing world matter more by then to metropole economies due to the capitalist economy establishing itself as a norm over the globe where most people were reliant on it), and prior to that they were not dependent on Europeans at all but the Europeans had to do everything to get trade rights from them.

Given these circumstances, I cannot really say the Portuguese or the Spanish, due to their less "advanced" social structure in relation to "capitalist modernity" were dominant. As far as I know, their form of colonialism, the early colonialism was nothing of the sort that transformed the English Channel Trading economies. It was still largely feudal and an economic system which carried the strong signs of a previous era.
Can't say I read early-colonial economies extensively though. My analysis was more based on 19th century absorption of Middle Eastern and East Asian economies.
 
Sorry for not answering more in detail to each one of your points Abdul, but for the sake of brevity I'll try to adress the different points in one post at a time.

By the end of the XV century, major foreign interventions were a distant memory for Italian states. The only scares before 1494 had been the Ottoman capture of Otranto in 1480 and the prolongued campaign by Alfonso V of Aragon to capture the kingdom of Naples during the first half of the century. The Ottoman invasion was short lived due to Ottoman problems in the Balkans and Alfonso V was a manageable problem for Italian states; after all he had to deal with the Visconti dukes of Milan and the popes to reach his goal.

They were also used to play the "French threat" against each other in their conflicts. French influence in Italy was nothing new. Apart from the old Angevin claims to Naples, the Orléans branch of the Valois royal family held Asti as a personal fiefdom and had a claim on the duchy of Milan. The duchy of Savoy and the marquisate of Saluzzo neighbored the French border and were under heavy French influence. As was the republic of Genoa itself. Between 1396 and 1407, the republic of Genoa put itself under protection of king Charles VI of France, and for more than a decade during the second part of the XV century, it again submitted to Charles VII. Ludovico Sforza had in fact asked for permission to the French court before meddling in Genoese politics, and it's far from clear if the Genoese involvement in the 1494 expedition was on behalf of Sforza or would have happened anyway. From the XIV century onwards, Genoese commercial interests had steadily shifted away from the eastern Mediterranean and the spice trade and had become deeply involved in the kingdoms of France, Castile and Portugal (same as with the banking houses of Florence). The Genoese oligarchy (it's a bit much to talk about a functioning "republic of Genoa" at this point in history) had much to lose if they opposed France, much more than if they opposed the Milanese duke.

What Sforza and Venice hoped for in 1494 was something that what had happened in the 1480s during the Ferrara war, when Venice had hired as a condottiero the Angevin René of Lorraine, and who was later sent by Sforza to Naples to stir up a revolt against king Ferrante I. That was their hope; a moderately sized force led by a nobleman, perhaps a "prince of the blood" related to the king, but nothing more.

And so they became alarmed as soon as notice reached them that the French expedition that was assembling in Lyons would amount to more than 25,000 men and the biggest artillery train ever seen in western Europe, and was to be commanded by the French king himself. That was what caused such opposition among royal advisers: more than the expedition in itself (which sagely they saw as a less than clear affair) they strongly opposed to having the king go there and expose himself to dying on foreign soil, especially as he was still childless.

Plus the expedition did not need specifically of Sforza's expertise; there were plenty of Neapolitan pro-Angevin nobles in it for the French king to be well advised about the geography of central and southern Italy. The duke of Ferrara (an experienced condottiero) was also a French ally, and one who would not change sides at the first opportunity.

About the goal of the expedition being a crusade against the Turks, it's worth noting that even influential and well informed contemporaries like the French diplomat Philippe de Commynes openly described it as "a lie". It's perfectly possible that Charles VIII was using it as a pretext to smooth things diplomatically, especially with the Church. Some believed him, and some did not (among them the two popes involved, Innocentius VIII and Alexander VI). Ironically, among those who believed him was the Ottoman sultan Bayezid II, who offered help to king Ferrante of Naples (who would later boast that he had an army of 20,000 Turkish soldiers ready to defend his kingdom).
 
Coerce? Coerce me? You and what army? Oh, that's right. I'm your army. Ha, ha ha.

They were free laborers, not coerced. They were paid wages - albeit wages in kind, in commodity or credit form.

That said, even if you could coerce them, that won't get you far. Soldiers need to eat to remain alive. Either you pay them cash wages, so they can procure their own food, or you feed them yourself. If the latter, then you have to carry around grain stores with you - grain which has to be bought and paid for from merchants, moved by ships, carts and laborers. And they need be paid. Or are you going to coerce them too?

Granted, Medieval monarchs could get some credit-in-advance from their soldiers by promises of plunder where they roamed. But promises don't feed bellies. And at the first bite of hunger, the army will start dissolving.

What I was pointing at was that you don't need cash to build a house. You can resort to coertion plus feeding the labourers, or paying them in kind if you want, or later help them building their own house .... In either case, there's little or no cash involved, although one thing is not using cash and another not paying the workforce. But as you very well noted, payments do not need to be in cash to count as that.

Systems based on slavery for example, rely little on cash, As long as you keep the slaves alive and provide them with tools, the only salaried workforce you'll need will be the guardsmen that do the physical coertion for you. And they can be paid in many ways other than cash: by allotting them a part of the slaves' production, or by ceding them land and some slaves for them to exploit .... That said, I'm not saying those are "superior" systems in any way; just that there are alternatives to cash money, and that most of human history has been without cash, or with little influence by it.

The European feudal economy also was fairly independent of cash, as most taxes paid by peasants to their lords were paid either in kind or directly in work. Also, employing free labour in exchanges for taxes due has been a common way of getting public works done along history, like for example the net of royal French roads in the XVIII century.
 
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About the structure of medieval and early modern european states, I can see that we will not agree. But I will insist that kings were in most cases not "primus inter pares", but major players in their own, and well above the rest of the upper nobility. The only major states that saw an evolution in that direction were the Holy Roman Empire from the XIII century onwards, and later Poland. In the rest of european kingdoms, despite periods of disorder, kings were repeatedly able to reassert themselves over the nobility.

I also disagree about cash being everything (or nearly everything); there was a lot more to european realities of that era, as the Venetians, Genoese and Florentines could experience first handedly. Also, I was not going to bring the Crusades into the discussion as in my opinion they lay too far out the discussed timeframe, but I'd like to hear in what way Venice, Genoa or Pisa influenced the formation and the evolution of the First Crusade, seeing as it deveoped mostly on land and that those republics only became involved in the whole affair when the Crusaders were in front of Jerusalem.
 
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