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Suggestion: 2 New Imperial Decisions

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CompactDisc

CompactDisc

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Jul 31, 2011
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I would like to suggest a small addition to the Roman Empire gameplay mechanics, but from a western perspective, decision for any western (sometimes Christian) empire.
Almost everyone loves their empires, biggest favourites are the ERE, HRE and the Abbasids. This topic will talk about the first two, other western empires and their interaction with each other.

Remember, this is just a suggestion, if you have anything to add, please do so.

Open spoilers to see maps.

Event 1: Roman recognition for Christian emperors
Reason:
Many Emperors have sought official recognition by the Byzantine emperors in order to be an official successor to the Western Roman Empire. Unfortunately for them, none were ever recognised after Julius Nepos who died in 480AD.
Conditions:
Potential (For the decision to be visible)
- Adult, not prisoner or incapable
- Is Emperor
- Has same religious group as Byzantine Emperor
Allow (For the decision to be enabled)
- Holds either kingdom of Italy or empire of Italia.
- None of Italia, Francia, Germania, Brittania or Hispania are held by a Christian other than the ruler.
- Has reigned their primary empire for 20 years
- Has 10000 Prestige
- Byzantine Emperor has high opinion of you (100)
- Have alliance (marriage) with Byzantine Empire
- Hold following land:
  • Duchy of Alger
  • Duchy of Aquitaine
  • Duchy of Barcelona
  • Duchy of Cordoba
  • Duchy of Dauphiné
  • Duchy of Essex
  • Duchy of Ferrara
  • Duchy of Genoa
  • Duchy of Latium
  • Duchy of Provence
  • Duchy of Tangiers
  • Duchy of Tunis
  • Duchy of Tripolitania
  • Duchy of Valois
imfP2WG.png
Effect:
- Current Empire changes to Western Roman Empire
- Byzantine Empire changes to Eastern Roman Empire
- Both can now invoke the 'Restore Roman Empire' event that already exists if they meet the other requirements (e.g. in case of inheritance/conquest of the other half)

Event 2: Integrate Orthodoxy
Reason:
The Orthodox can mend the Schism, but the Catholics have no such options.
Conditions:
Potential (For the decision to be visible)
- Adult, not prisoner or incapable
- Is Emperor
- Catholic OR Cathar OR Fraticelli OR Waldensian OR Lollard
- Not a heretic
- Schism has not already been mended
Allow (For the decision to be enabled)
- 2000 piety
- 90% Religious Authority
- Completely control the County of Antioch
- Owner of the Barony of Köln is both [Catholic OR Cathar OR Fraticelli OR Waldensian OR Lollard] AND is not a heretic
- Completely control the County of Jerusalem
- Owner of the Barony of Jerusalem is both [Catholic OR Cathar OR Fraticelli OR Waldensian OR Lollard] AND is not a heretic
- Completely control the County of Alexandria
- Owner of the Barony of Santiago is both [Catholic OR Cathar OR Fraticelli OR Waldensian OR Lollard] AND is not a heretic
- Completely control the County of Constantinople
- Owner of the Barony of Santiago is both [Catholic OR Cathar OR Fraticelli OR Waldensian OR Lollard] AND is not a heretic
- You OR Popal State completely controls the County of Roma
- Owner of the Barony of Roma is both [Catholic OR Cathar OR Fraticelli OR Waldensian OR Lollard] AND is not a heretic

KyEboKc.png
Effect:
- Orthodoxy and its heresies become de facto heresies of Catholicism
- All Orthodox rulers get option to convert to Catholicism
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
I added a map for clarity, I might change if necessary because even though I made it for clarity, it doesn't clearly state what has to be taken and what is optional :p
 
CompactDisc said:
I agree that it needs more territory than Italy, I'd say let it have the same requirements as forming the HRE does right now: Control Italy and a kingdom in either Hispania, Germania or Francia.
I'm adding the following:
-Holds either kingdom of Italy or empire of Italia.
-Holds empire of Francia, Germania, Brittania or Hispania, or else holds a kingdom in one of these empires.
-None of Italia, Francia, Germania, Brittania or Hispania are held by a Christian other than the ruler.
-220 realm size
Click to expand...

I'd say if you wanna form the WRE, than you need other conditions than the HRE. And realm size shouldn't be one of them.

First of all you should take from the land requirements of the ERE to reform the RE. And by that I mean all the duchies the ERE needs to hold in Italy + Tunisia.

After that, for all the other duchies that the ERE needs to control, you replace them with an equivalent in Spain, France and North Africa. Thus when you have all those under your control, and start to vaguely resemble the WRE, you can go do the thingy.

Otherwise, would you give me WRE if I am a Catholic Arab who has taken the Italian Empire and Kingdom titles, but lost the actual lands later? And I just happen to hold Portugal? That would make for a very weird WRE.

Conditions should be linked to duchies, not kingdoms. Kingdoms can de-jure drift into other areas and effectively move, duchies cannot. They are static, and you have the guarantee that they will always be there.
 
I think having to restore the pentarchy in the same way that Orthodox has to to forcibly end the schism... but with the pentarchs recognising the authority of the Pope (ie being catholic) as an additional requirement would be good. With events to flip the pentarchs to orthodox if their relationship with the pope deteriorated sufficiently. (and perhaps the chance of their secular lieges pressuring them to stay catholic, or flipping with them to orthodoxy).
 
exin said:
I'd say if you wanna form the WRE, than you need other conditions than the HRE. And realm size shouldn't be one of them.

First of all you should take from the land requirements of the ERE to reform the RE. And by that I mean all the duchies the ERE needs to hold in Italy + Tunisia.

After that, for all the other duchies that the ERE needs to control, you replace them with an equivalent in Spain, France and North Africa. Thus when you have all those under your control, and start to vaguely resemble the WRE, you can go do the thingy.

Otherwise, would you give me WRE if I am a Catholic Arab who has taken the Italian Empire and Kingdom titles, but lost the actual lands later? And I just happen to hold Portugal? That would make for a very weird WRE.

Conditions should be linked to duchies, not kingdoms. Kingdoms can de-jure drift into other areas and effectively move, duchies cannot. They are static, and you have the guarantee that they will always be there.
Click to expand...
I have now added a lot of territory requirements and altered the old ones, please take a look again, I think it looks way better now, though maybe some small changes are in order. I still don't know if Latium should be completely controlled by player or not. I made it like this so the pope has to be a vassal or expelled from Latium in order to form the WRE but maybe that's a bit excessive.
Latheloi said:
I think having to restore the pentarchy in the same way that Orthodox has to to forcibly end the schism... but with the pentarchs recognising the authority of the Pope (ie being catholic) as an additional requirement would be good. With events to flip the pentarchs to orthodox if their relationship with the pope deteriorated sufficiently. (and perhaps the chance of their secular lieges pressuring them to stay catholic, or flipping with them to orthodoxy).
Click to expand...
The pentarchy is of no consequence to the Christians but the Orthodox of course disagree. That's why there is a requirement of Orthodoxy not having any Pentarchs left, but you may be right, adding all pentarchy counties might be a necessary requirement to get rid of the Orthodox heresy once and for all. I just need more arguments either way to be sure.
 
Yah neither the Catholics, the oriental orthodox and Church of the East cared about the Pentarchy, they were all believers in the three Petrine See model which held the Popes of Rome and Alexandra as well as the patriarch of Antioch authority having wider authority over the wider church, in that order of honor. Pope Leo the first pointy rejected canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon on the ground that it contravened the sixth canon of Nicaea and infringed the rights of Alexandria and Antioch and objected like the other sees to the Patriarch of Constantinople being raised to a place of honor over of Alexandria and Antioch.
 
Love the first suggestion - truly golden.

However, I think there needs to be some requirement for having held that land for some time.

There is no reason for the Byzantine Empire to acknowledge a short-lived but prodigal warlord, but if, say his son managed to hold onto those holdings and reign for 20 years straight and gain 5000 prestige(an easy task with that kind of Empire)? I think they would simply have no other choice...

So, TL;DR:

add to the event:

Has Reigned 20 year
Has 5000 Prestige

and I think it will be perfect
 
DerOstkonig said:
Love the first suggestion - truly golden.

However, I think there needs to be some requirement for having held that land for some time.

There is no reason for the Byzantine Empire to acknowledge a short-lived but prodigal warlord, but if, say his son managed to hold onto those holdings and reign for 20 years straight and gain 5000 prestige(an easy task with that kind of Empire)? I think they would simply have no other choice...

So, TL;DR:

add to the event:

Has Reigned 20 year
Has 5000 Prestige

and I think it will be perfect
Click to expand...
Why didn't I think of that? The prestige thing is just a MUST-have! The 20 year reign is a bit hard to implement I think unless it's just 20 year reign over the empire. I'll add it in like that, thanks for the suggestion :D
 
CompactDisc said:
Why didn't I think of that? The prestige thing is just a MUST-have! The 20 year reign is a bit hard to implement I think unless it's just 20 year reign over the empire. I'll add it in like that, thanks for the suggestion :D
Click to expand...

20 year reign is an easy one, just make it so any ruler has ruled the title for 20 years, same condition as the one for "had ruled 10 years" in succession law changes.
 
DerOstkonig said:
20 year reign is an easy one, just make it so any ruler has ruled the title for 20 years, same condition as the one for "had ruled 10 years" in succession law changes.
Click to expand...
I thought he meant for each of the Duchies, but I guess even that is possible. Anyway, the emperor title is fine :)
 
I like decisions to bring the WRE back suggestions, I really do, but frankly I think it would be just as nice if Italia were officially renamed to the WRE on its own. Considering you need Italy, Sicily and another kingdom, that other kingdom could easily be part of Gaul, Illyria or Africa and from there you're pretty much golden to Holy War for Iberia and press marriage claims on the ERE and then you can form the united Roman Empire anyway.

But I do like WRE decision suggestions.
 
Alcadizzar19 said:
I like decisions to bring the WRE back suggestions, I really do, but frankly I think it would be just as nice if Italia were officially renamed to the WRE on its own. Considering you need Italy, Sicily and another kingdom, that other kingdom could easily be part of Gaul, Illyria or Africa and from there you're pretty much golden to Holy War for Iberia and press marriage claims on the ERE and then you can form the united Roman Empire anyway.

But I do like WRE decision suggestions.
Click to expand...
It's been discussed earlier on, I had something similar for a while. It's just not a good idea not to attach owned land to this, since owning 3 kingdoms is possible even if you only have 1 duchy left after several wars. There is no way however that the ERE would respect you much.
 
I like the idea of a bring back the WRE decision and possible positive effects with that (imperial administration?). However, I think that being the Western Roman Empire should also have the consequence of being the junior half of the Roman Empire. Therefore, all other empire titles you have are forfeit since there is no empire but the Roman Empire and your succession law is locked into appointment by the eastern Emperor. (Special kind of elective?)
 
CompactDisc said:
The pentarchy is of no consequence to the Christians but the Orthodox of course disagree. That's why there is a requirement of Orthodoxy not having any Pentarchs left, but you may be right, adding all pentarchy counties might be a necessary requirement to get rid of the Orthodox heresy once and for all. I just need more arguments either way to be sure.
Click to expand...

Well, I suppose my three points would be...
a) symmetry with the orthodox version of the decision. Both start off with one of the five, and three uncontrolled.
b) the Orthodox church is view as separate but non-heretic with ONLY the Ecumenical Patriarch; thus his separateness has to be considered relevant
c) the catholic version would not end with having the pentarchy mechanics; just having those traditional and important sees in agreement

I'd be dubious about just having them not exist because that would be much easier to achieve. It would also make losing Constantinople ridiculously bad for orthodoxy

Edit:
Also, having the possibility of the restored patriarchs flipping to orthodox makes it harder for Catholics. Which is reasonable because it will be easier to get them (given crusades, plus more orders) and because it is putting a straight hierarchical structure rather than a primus inter pares one (which would be clearly preferable).
 
Last edited:
Latheloi said:
Well, I suppose my three points would be...
a) symmetry with the orthodox version of the decision. Both start off with one of the five, and three uncontrolled.
b) the Orthodox church is view as separate but non-heretic with ONLY the Ecumenical Patriarch; thus his separateness has to be considered relevant
c) the catholic version would not end with having the pentarchy mechanics; just having those traditional and important sees in agreement

I'd be dubious about just having them not exist because that would be much easier to achieve. It would also make losing Constantinople ridiculously bad for orthodoxy

Edit:
Also, having the possibility of the restored patriarchs flipping to orthodox makes it harder for Catholics. Which is reasonable because it will be easier to get them (given crusades, plus more orders) and because it is putting a straight hierarchical structure rather than a primus inter pares one (which would be clearly preferable).
Click to expand...
I was gone for almost a week so had time to think about this and I agree with some of your points but the thing is that the pentarchy is absolutely gone for the Catholics. The Muslims took over those ancient sites, but to be fair, they are important Christian sites for Catholicism as well. I added them as a conquest requirement instead of the holy sites because it would confirm Catholics as being in charge.
 
- None of Italia, Francia, Germania, Brittania or Hispania are held by a Christian other than the ruler.
...
- Have alliance (marriage) with Byzantine Empire
Click to expand...

The first one confuses me. Why would it matter if there are petty rulers in those regions? The Roman Empire should be happy that its neighbors are believers. It makes them so much easier to conquer and integrate later.

The second one feels...off. You're already asking for the same religious group (does this include heresies?) and for 100 opinion with the Basilieus. Depending on the family members, it may be impossible to get a marriage alliance with the ERE in the right timeframe.

Also, 5000 prestige sounds too small if someone already has an empire. It takes 8000 prestige to form a custom empire, and with 20 years on the throne, it's not inconceivable that anyone holding multiple king titles could gain 3000 more prestige and simply declare themselves the emperor of whatever. It might even be named Roman Empire, it's the ruler's custom empire (I know that's not supported in the game right now, but its a logical extension of the feature). I'd suggest bumping it up to 10000 prestige, the glory of the WRE demands a world-renown leader.
 
jordanjay29 said:
The first one confuses me. Why would it matter if there are petty rulers in those regions? The Roman Empire should be happy that its neighbors are believers. It makes them so much easier to conquer and integrate later.
Click to expand...
It just means there should be no other emperor titles in western Europe, petty rulers are no issue.
jordanjay29 said:
The second one feels...off. You're already asking for the same religious group (does this include heresies?) and for 100 opinion with the Basilieus. Depending on the family members, it may be impossible to get a marriage alliance with the ERE in the right timeframe.

Also, 5000 prestige sounds too small if someone already has an empire. It takes 8000 prestige to form a custom empire, and with 20 years on the throne, it's not inconceivable that anyone holding multiple king titles could gain 3000 more prestige and simply declare themselves the emperor of whatever. It might even be named Roman Empire, it's the ruler's custom empire (I know that's not supported in the game right now, but its a logical extension of the feature). I'd suggest bumping it up to 10000 prestige, the glory of the WRE demands a world-renown leader.
Click to expand...
You are right about the prestige, it's a bit low so I'll up it a little to 10.000 so it's more of a challenge. The Basileus however, was officially recognized as the Roman Emperor by then by practically everyone in Europe. Being recognised by him would make you an official emperor of the Western Roman Empire.
 
I updated the map to fit with the requirements, it appeared to be off 1 province. But does anyone have anything else to say on this?
 
The Duchy setup for the WRE decision (which is intriguing) should be changed because it involves contiguous strips of land and/or land of scarce to no symbolic importance.
I'd go with removing d_aragon and d_kabylia, but add d_marrakech or d_alger (who would be closer to the old Numidian Kingdom's capital).
 
Zqrfmb said:
Catholic schism mend should check if there are no pentarchs. Kind of doubtful if you hold constantinople and J-lem that orthodoxy holds Alexandria or Antioch, but still.
Click to expand...
I had that in there before, but since the decision now requires you to hold all pentarchy location anyway I don't think it's necessary, or do you think otherwise?
Evil Crusader said:
The Duchy setup for the WRE decision (which is intriguing) should be changed because it involves contiguous strips of land and/or land of scarce to no symbolic importance.
I'd go with removing d_aragon and d_kabylia, but add d_marrakech or d_alger (who would be closer to the old Numidian Kingdom's capital).
Click to expand...
I do like the idea of removing d_kabylia and adding d_alger, but d_marrakech seems a bit far South, I don't think the Romans ever really conquered it anyway. I added d_tangiers instead, check the map for reference =) Thanks for the suggestion though and if you have good reason for other changes, feel free to tell me.
 
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