Creating a Tribal Empire

Chyll · Oct 26, 2014

After playing for a while in the wild Pagan East... I'm thinking the barriers to empire creation are intended by design to stall a Tribal Empire.
8k Prestige, Elective Gavelkind, 180 holdings.

I can't decide if the hurdle is too high, or appropriate.
I can say the scramble to get my kingdoms back from my brothers every generation is chaotic good fun, even if I only ever made one kingdom...

Any other thoughts?

markmid · Oct 26, 2014

Well before we devolve into the usual historical vs gameplay arguments.

There is a simple way to decide from a gameplay perspective the position to take.

Has an AI ever achieved it anywhere, in anyone's game no matter how remote a chance, if not then it's too high.
Do players ever achieve this? If not then it's really, really too high.

I understand that it fits that it be a rare occurrence, but I haven't played enough of the latest expansion yet to answer these questions, and I am sure some people will come up with some strategies to help.

thevmag · Oct 26, 2014

I've managed it within 3 generations. Some tribals have it easier than others - if you're in Central Europe or southern Scandinavia, you can take the holdings of Christians or feudal Pagans for their more developed lands. If you're out in the steppes, 180 realm size is going to get VERY close to 180 provinces. When I did it, I stretched from Bohemia all the way to easternmost Turkestan, clinging onto everything in between. It's a lot, but it's doable.

The trick is holding it. If you're on Elective Galvenkind, you better hope you're somewhere close to civilized Europe so you don't have to walk so far to get your 180. Whether you are or are not, there are options: if you grab a Muslim woman, convert to bedroom religion: Elective Gavelkind gets replaced with Open Succession, and you get to choose your heirs from now on. Instant stability.

Chyll · Oct 26, 2014

thevmag said:
I've managed it within 3 generations. Some tribals have it easier than others - if you're in Central Europe or southern Scandinavia, you can take the holdings of Christians or feudal Pagans for their more developed lands. If you're out in the steppes, 180 realm size is going to get VERY close to 180 provinces. When I did it, I stretched from Bohemia all the way to easternmost Turkestan, clinging onto everything in between. It's a lot, but it's doable.

The trick is holding it. If you're on Elective Galvenkind, you better hope you're somewhere close to civilized Europe so you don't have to walk so far to get your 180. Whether you are or are not, there are options: if you grab a Muslim woman, convert to bedroom religion: Elective Gavelkind gets replaced with Open Succession, and you get to choose your heirs from now on. Instant stability.

Ah, there's the ticket. EG succession kept dividing the realm and creating king tier titles as I got larger. By the time I recollected everything and started expanding, that king would die and it would start all over again.

Ultimately, I just settled for forming the Wendish Empire rather than creating... though of course at my first death EG gave away my built up home provinces and and denied me even a kingdom so my one province Emperor promptly faced a 3 king revolt...

Tribal is fun, though. A nice variation in game play.

Zakath · Oct 26, 2014

Chyll said:
Ah, there's the ticket. EG succession kept dividing the realm and creating king tier titles as I got larger. By the time I recollected everything and started expanding, that king would die and it would start all over again.

Ultimately, I just settled for forming the Wendish Empire rather than creating... though of course at my first death EG gave away my built up home provinces and and denied me even a kingdom so my one province Emperor promptly faced a 3 king revolt...

Tribal is fun, though. A nice variation in game play.

Those successions suck, but latest beta patch fixes Gavelkind. If you have holdings enough outside your de facto capital duchy you keep it all, the rest is handed off though. So at least you keep your good province now.

Dr Gonzo · Oct 27, 2014

markmid said:
Well before we devolve into the usual historical vs gameplay arguments.

There is a simple way to decide from a gameplay perspective the position to take.

Has an AI ever achieved it anywhere, in anyone's game no matter how remote a chance, if not then it's too high.
Do players ever achieve this? If not then it's really, really too high.

I understand that it fits that it be a rare occurrence, but I haven't played enough of the latest expansion yet to answer these questions, and I am sure some people will come up with some strategies to help.

For the AI to form an Empire it needs to jump a much bigger hurdle:

OR = {
ai = no
AND = {
trait = proud
prestige = 40000
}
AND = {
trait = ambitious
prestige = 40000
}
prestige = 120000
}

The AI needs 40,000 prestige if its character is proud or ambitious, 120,000 otherwise, before it'll do it. As far as I'm concerned it's never gonna happen. I think a player could do it, but it seems harder than just conquering an empire for the most part. I understand the formation conditions are slightly broken and there's supposed to be an or in there instead of an and somewhere so we can presume it'll get a little more realistic for humans to do this anyway.

Zakath · Oct 27, 2014

Dr Gonzo said:
The AI needs 40,000 prestige if its character is proud or ambitious, 120,000 otherwise, before it'll do it. As far as I'm concerned it's never gonna happen. I think a player could do it, but it seems harder than just conquering an empire for the most part. I understand the formation conditions are slightly broken and there's supposed to be an or in there instead of an and somewhere so we can presume it'll get a little more realistic for humans to do this anyway.

Depending on where in the world the player is, it's much easier once it's fixed. 180 holdings or 3 kingdoms. Ireland, Scotland and Wales strike me as one of the easier locations.

That said it becomes a bit harder once you're no longer pagan. One of the advantages of the "old" titles is that you get the de jure CB for their lands, using custom Kingdoms / Empires makes you lose that.

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Creating a Tribal Empire

Chyll

General

markmid

Colonel

thevmag

is like nipples on men

Chyll

General

Zakath

General

Dr Gonzo

Major

Zakath

General