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I found varying numbers for the ship's completion, but 10% across the board on average sounds good to me.
I have not met with success on the first try.
I won't go into extensive detail, but I am having difficulty getting all the armor in place. 120 ARM is a tall order, and it represents the amount of armor I would build into 24 of my own armored corps.
I need to rethink my use of heavy industry emphasis. I assumed that the best time to implement it was after Anschluss when I get the reduced neutrality and thus consumer goods demand, but I am probably wrong. Anyone have a better timetable for enacting it?
I also think I might be overbuilding IC. I might tone it down to 40 IC, because I'm not getting into gear in 1938 as quickly as I should be.
If I still can't do it even after optimizing some stuff, I might try it without the ART brigades. But I will say that it this is a difficult build. Optimizing those armored divisions is a real task.
I won't go into extensive detail, but I am having difficulty getting all the armor in place. 120 ARM is a tall order, and it represents the amount of armor I would build into 24 of my own armored corps.
I need to rethink my use of heavy industry emphasis. I assumed that the best time to implement it was after Anschluss when I get the reduced neutrality and thus consumer goods demand, but I am probably wrong. Anyone have a better timetable for enacting it?
I also think I might be overbuilding IC. I might tone it down to 40 IC, because I'm not getting into gear in 1938 as quickly as I should be.
If I still can't do it even after optimizing some stuff, I might try it without the ART brigades. But I will say that it this is a difficult build. Optimizing those armored divisions is a real task.
I've always found HI to be inadequate during peacetime because of the CG need. It's been a long time since I played SU. Can they get Mixed Industry? Because that might be workable.
MI is only for fascist during peacetime.
You can try abusing game laws, building with CGO, then switching to HI for a few days to get 20% reduction time. Gamey? Sure. Against the rules? Don't think so.
You can try abusing game laws, building with CGO, then switching to HI for a few days to get 20% reduction time. Gamey? Sure. Against the rules? Don't think so.
I read somewhere that someone had the math on HI as to when it became more profitable than CGO at peace, but I can't find the post. I may also be misremembering something from FTM. As for MI, only the fascist nations get it, so that's out.
I could abuse the law by working it back and forth, but I'm not sure that would provide the extra IC I need in time.
I could abuse the law by working it back and forth, but I'm not sure that would provide the extra IC I need in time.
Cant you just delete al HQs. That should help keep consumer goods demand in check
CGO to HI abuse gives you 20% more IC to work with while reducing the building cost of your units by 20%. It's almost as gamey as upgrade abuse with costs saved. Not sure if you're allowed to upgrade abuse, but if you are then this build is easily doable even with 3 year draft laws and no industry law abuse. Before MP groups started banning upgrades, I've pumped out more than ~200 tanks (50 of which were HARM) by June 1941 without using any reserves and no industry abuse as Ger/Sov before.
I already banned brigade upgrade abuse myself, for the very reasons you listed. It's a bit silly.
I may rethink when I implement certain parts of the build. I noticed that in June of 1941, I had a cost reduction of around 45% to just about everything thanks to practicals. But I didn't have nearly that much of a reduction in armor, which tells me that I need to build more armor sooner.
Since I'm using lower laws earlier, I probably should focus on armor production under One Year Draft to maximize savings. The INF can wait.
EDIT: Oh, and I saw that I did one really stupid thing. I built the GAR/MP divisions too early. Since they are not reserves, they increased consumer good demand for years on end. They should be last.
I may rethink when I implement certain parts of the build. I noticed that in June of 1941, I had a cost reduction of around 45% to just about everything thanks to practicals. But I didn't have nearly that much of a reduction in armor, which tells me that I need to build more armor sooner.
Since I'm using lower laws earlier, I probably should focus on armor production under One Year Draft to maximize savings. The INF can wait.
EDIT: Oh, and I saw that I did one really stupid thing. I built the GAR/MP divisions too early. Since they are not reserves, they increased consumer good demand for years on end. They should be last.
Really looking forward to the results.
David Glantz has a large number of books on Barbarossa and the build-up to it. One in particular: "Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War" contains pretty much every OOB a Soviet player would want, not that HoI3 gets down to the regimental/battalion level. Mine's buried in a box in my attic somewhere, but I may have to go digging it out soon.
David Glantz has a large number of books on Barbarossa and the build-up to it. One in particular: "Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War" contains pretty much every OOB a Soviet player would want, not that HoI3 gets down to the regimental/battalion level. Mine's buried in a box in my attic somewhere, but I may have to go digging it out soon.
From Wikipedia, here's an interesting bit on NKVD motorized troops.
The 8th Motorized Rifle Division of the NKVD Internal Troops was formed in accordance with NKVD Order Number 0021 from January 5, 1942, during execution GKO decree number 1099- ss on January 4, 1942. It was based on the 23rd Motorized Rifle Division NKVD Internal Troops.[1]
David Glantz writes that in early December, the Southwestern Front combined the remnants of the 91st, 92nd, 94th, and 98th Border Guards Detachments with the 6th, 16th and 28th NKVD MRRs to form the division.(Colossus Reborn, 165)
The 8th Infantry Division of the NKVD Internal Troops was part of the troops of the South-Western Front and included the:
4th Red Banner Motor Rifle Regiment ;
6th Motorized Rifle Regiment ;
16th Motorized Rifle Regiment ;
28th Motorized Rifle Regiment ;
266th Motorized Rifle Regiment ;
274th Motorized Rifle Regiment ;
10th Artillery Regiment ;
On May 9, 1942, from the 8th Motorized Rifle Division of Internal Troops stand
Management Division,
4th Red Banner Motor Rifle Regiment,
266th Motorized Rifle Regiment,
274th Motorized Rifle Regiment.
On the basis of these parts of the 8th Motorized Rifle Division of the NKVD the 13th Rifle Division NKVD was formed.[1] The 287th Infantry Regiment of the 3rd Infantry Division NKVD internal troops also joined the division.[2]
Colonel Gorishnii Vasily Akimovich was appointed the Divisional commander, while military commissar Division Senior Battalion Commissar Ilya Arkhipovich Vlasenko.
The remaining units of the division are part of the 8th Motorized Rifle Division NKVD internal troops to June 25, 1942 and when it is on the order of the Supreme Command joined the Red Army and was named the 63rd Rifle Division.
On November 23, 1942, the 63rd Rifle Division was transformed into the 52nd Riga-Berlin Guards Rifle Division for military merit.
Soviet units were really a wild mix.
The 8th Motorized Rifle Division of the NKVD Internal Troops was formed in accordance with NKVD Order Number 0021 from January 5, 1942, during execution GKO decree number 1099- ss on January 4, 1942. It was based on the 23rd Motorized Rifle Division NKVD Internal Troops.[1]
David Glantz writes that in early December, the Southwestern Front combined the remnants of the 91st, 92nd, 94th, and 98th Border Guards Detachments with the 6th, 16th and 28th NKVD MRRs to form the division.(Colossus Reborn, 165)
The 8th Infantry Division of the NKVD Internal Troops was part of the troops of the South-Western Front and included the:
4th Red Banner Motor Rifle Regiment ;
6th Motorized Rifle Regiment ;
16th Motorized Rifle Regiment ;
28th Motorized Rifle Regiment ;
266th Motorized Rifle Regiment ;
274th Motorized Rifle Regiment ;
10th Artillery Regiment ;
On May 9, 1942, from the 8th Motorized Rifle Division of Internal Troops stand
Management Division,
4th Red Banner Motor Rifle Regiment,
266th Motorized Rifle Regiment,
274th Motorized Rifle Regiment.
On the basis of these parts of the 8th Motorized Rifle Division of the NKVD the 13th Rifle Division NKVD was formed.[1] The 287th Infantry Regiment of the 3rd Infantry Division NKVD internal troops also joined the division.[2]
Colonel Gorishnii Vasily Akimovich was appointed the Divisional commander, while military commissar Division Senior Battalion Commissar Ilya Arkhipovich Vlasenko.
The remaining units of the division are part of the 8th Motorized Rifle Division NKVD internal troops to June 25, 1942 and when it is on the order of the Supreme Command joined the Red Army and was named the 63rd Rifle Division.
On November 23, 1942, the 63rd Rifle Division was transformed into the 52nd Riga-Berlin Guards Rifle Division for military merit.
Soviet units were really a wild mix.
SM, just saw this snippet, re: draft laws:
This specific law on mobilization allowed the Red Army to increase its army of 1,871,600 men in 1939 to 5,081,000 in the spring of 1941 under secrecy to avoid alarming the rest of the world.[5] 18 million reservists were also drafted.[citation needed] The duration of service was 2 years. Thus, according to supporters of the Soviet Union Offensive Plans Theory, the Red Army had to enter a war by 1 September 1941 or the drafted soldiers would have to be released from service.
This specific law on mobilization allowed the Red Army to increase its army of 1,871,600 men in 1939 to 5,081,000 in the spring of 1941 under secrecy to avoid alarming the rest of the world.[5] 18 million reservists were also drafted.[citation needed] The duration of service was 2 years. Thus, according to supporters of the Soviet Union Offensive Plans Theory, the Red Army had to enter a war by 1 September 1941 or the drafted soldiers would have to be released from service.
I failed yet again last night, but this time I was much closer to success.
Relevant tidbits from last nights run:
I met the armor quota by 1940.
I met the MOT quota by 1940.
I failed to meet the Rifle Division quota by a significant margin.
I didn't quite make the aircraft quota.
I didn't meet the GAR/MP quota.
It looks like I need to tailor my IC run a bit better to my current production goal. Usually, my IC runs assume the war will last until 1942 as the Soviets, so the IC has to pay itself off by then. But I'm just trying to reach a 1941 production target, so adding more than 40 base IC is a waste, given Soviet laws in 1936. This last time, I had a few stray IC in the queue in the middle of 1938, which is not optimum.
I also think I will sit at Volunteer Army until Danzig or War, and then only switch to Two Year Draft (based on Opanshc's original estimation and Kyrion's discussion).
Another consideration is timing aircraft and naval builds. Because air and naval units don't respond to draft laws, there's no point in building any of them early, except to keep practicals warm. This last time, I had TRA and STR in the queue while still at low draft laws, eating up production at a time when I could have gotten discounted army units.
There is, however, a problem I will no doubt face with a slight reduction in draft laws: manpower. As I'm sure jju_57 will be guessing, there is the possibility that I will successfully meet the build, only to fail at having enough manpower to mobilize the Red Army when hostilities break out. I'm already nearing the bottom of the manpower barrel on these last two attempts. Swapping laws around a bit might put me in the red for mobilization for Barbarossa, which could be considered a failure of the build scheme. It's one thing to have only a tiny bit of manpower after mobilization, but it's another thing to be short manpower to even reach 100% of existing units.
I will try again tonight.
That's a ton of manpower. In fact, it's a bit more than I would have guessed. Where was all that manpower going? It wasn't all in Poland.
Relevant tidbits from last nights run:
I met the armor quota by 1940.
I met the MOT quota by 1940.
I failed to meet the Rifle Division quota by a significant margin.
I didn't quite make the aircraft quota.
I didn't meet the GAR/MP quota.
It looks like I need to tailor my IC run a bit better to my current production goal. Usually, my IC runs assume the war will last until 1942 as the Soviets, so the IC has to pay itself off by then. But I'm just trying to reach a 1941 production target, so adding more than 40 base IC is a waste, given Soviet laws in 1936. This last time, I had a few stray IC in the queue in the middle of 1938, which is not optimum.
I also think I will sit at Volunteer Army until Danzig or War, and then only switch to Two Year Draft (based on Opanshc's original estimation and Kyrion's discussion).
Another consideration is timing aircraft and naval builds. Because air and naval units don't respond to draft laws, there's no point in building any of them early, except to keep practicals warm. This last time, I had TRA and STR in the queue while still at low draft laws, eating up production at a time when I could have gotten discounted army units.
There is, however, a problem I will no doubt face with a slight reduction in draft laws: manpower. As I'm sure jju_57 will be guessing, there is the possibility that I will successfully meet the build, only to fail at having enough manpower to mobilize the Red Army when hostilities break out. I'm already nearing the bottom of the manpower barrel on these last two attempts. Swapping laws around a bit might put me in the red for mobilization for Barbarossa, which could be considered a failure of the build scheme. It's one thing to have only a tiny bit of manpower after mobilization, but it's another thing to be short manpower to even reach 100% of existing units.
I will try again tonight.
That's a ton of manpower. In fact, it's a bit more than I would have guessed. Where was all that manpower going? It wasn't all in Poland.
I'm guessing it maybe didn't happen - this was from an article about the Suvorov book and theory about how Stalin was planning on invading Germany and was surprised when the Germans struck first. There's been a lot of discrediting of that theory for years now.
I wish I could find my Glantz books. His numbers are pretty much gospel these days.
I wish I could find my Glantz books. His numbers are pretty much gospel these days.
In a way, that's a bit historical, isn't it? Disorganized, under-strength units were being cobbled together all over the place.
Training camps, logistic units, small garrisons, military construction units (engineers), etc.
You going write up the details of your tests for us to look at, SM? It would be interesting to see which path produced which results, even though they didn't reach the goal.
Well, I can provide some summaries of the failures, but I only documented a few things.
So what is your conclusion? My problem when whenever trying to get SU way up there was MP. And just like when playing France I generally ignored the navy as that had little to no impact on the land war anyway.
I didn't get to it last night. I went to Rifftrax Live instead and watched Anaconda.
As for my conclusion, I will say this: the Heavy Industry Emphasis upgrade is of dubious value. Unless you abuse it by going back and forth, it eats up a ton of IC (around a 70 IC increase in consumer good demand after Danzig or War when neutrality is zero) for what amounts to a 25% reduction in IC costs. You'd need 300 effective IC in production to make up the loss. So, unless I'm bad at math, it's a net loss most of the time even when threat is absurdly high.
As for my conclusion, I will say this: the Heavy Industry Emphasis upgrade is of dubious value. Unless you abuse it by going back and forth, it eats up a ton of IC (around a 70 IC increase in consumer good demand after Danzig or War when neutrality is zero) for what amounts to a 25% reduction in IC costs. You'd need 300 effective IC in production to make up the loss. So, unless I'm bad at math, it's a net loss most of the time even when threat is absurdly high.