• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
So you quote places Matthew actually took out from Mark(at least according to Markan priority) to support that Matthew was interested in Gentiles, and (deliberately, it appears) ignore those passages he actually wrote himself and that tell explicitly

Matthew 10:5-6 said:
5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Matthew 10:23 said:
23"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

I don't see how you can get more explicit than this. The centurion thing is of course also from Mark. Matthew doesn't call Jesus the son of God but the son of Man. Rather than posit that Matthew actually held the exactly same views as Mark and everything he added himself was pure deception, I think it is much more reasonable to believe that he simply copy/pasted Mark, either not realising what Markan text really implied or holding the author of Mark in too big esteem to feel qualified to make major changes, and that his own conceptions are reflected, by, as strange as this may sound, the portions of the text he wrote himself.

The reference to Nazareth is necessary as Jesus was, as a matter of fact, from Nazareth. However, the very fact that Matthew even bothers to mention a prophecy, be it actually fallacious, shows he is writing for a Jewish audience. Now Matthew is also the one who adds the story about the birth in Bethlehem, the city of David. He can't ignore the fact that Jesus was, to common knowledge, from Nazareth but tries very hard to reconcile this fact with the prophetic tradition.
 
I fear you missed the point of the doctrine of transsubstantiation. It does not claim in any way that there DNA molecules in the bread nor that the molecular setup is modified in any way. In fact, it has been developed precisely to counter this kind of "arguments".
 
I fear you missed the point of the doctrine of transsubstantiation. It does not claim in any way that there DNA molecules in the bread nor that the molecular setup is modified in any way. In fact, it has been developed precisely to counter this kind of "arguments".
Here is precisely what the church has to say to counter this kind of arguments:

Canon 1.If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as in a sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema.
What kind of discussion is possible after this? Can't argue with fanatics, not without an AK47.
 
I fear you missed the point of the doctrine of transsubstantiation. It does not claim in any way that there DNA molecules in the bread nor that the molecular setup is modified in any way. In fact, it has been developed precisely to counter this kind of "arguments".

Precisely. Although we have a couple of interesting little cases that we can mention as well.

Here is precisely what the church has to say to counter this kind of arguments:


What kind of discussion is possible after this? Can't argue with fanatics, not without an AK47.

Really? Advocating violence towards Catholics for believing a certain thing and declaring that those who don't believe said doctrine are cast out from the Church? Who are the fanatics again?
 
Nope - read the sentence to the end. This is actually meant for heretics, not unbelievers.
Yes, in fact, the next sentence is more to the point.

Canon 2.If anyone says that in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denies that wonderful and singular change of the whole substance of the bread into the body and the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the appearances only of bread and wine remaining, which change the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation, let him be anathema.

As for the violence -

Really? Advocating violence towards Catholics for believing a certain thing and declaring that those who don't believe said doctrine are cast out from the Church? Who are the fanatics again?
I'm saying that no verbal argument can work against this kind of reasoning: "let them be anathema". Violence is not being advocated. "You can't argue with fanatics without an AK47" - doesn't mean that you should argue with fanatics using an AK47, as you can simply refrain from arguing with them at all.
 
Here is precisely what the church has to say to counter this kind of arguments:


What kind of discussion is possible after this? Can't argue with fanatics, not without an AK47.

"Truly", "Really" and "Substantially" are all terms of aristotelian philosophy.
 
I fear you missed the point of the doctrine of transsubstantiation. It does not claim in any way that there DNA molecules in the bread nor that the molecular setup is modified in any way. In fact, it has been developed precisely to counter this kind of "arguments".
That's precisely what transubstantiation is about; the physical transformation of the bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Christ. Therefore one would expect that the bread and wine, after the sacrament has been performed, would contain human DNA. Clearly it does not, as such a thing would be scientifically impossible.
 
Doubtful. The Eucharist is mentioned in the earliest Christian writings - Paul's letters, written around the year 50. It's not certain whether Christianity even spread into Egypt by that time. Certainly it wouldn't have time to gain some particular treats and then somehow influence Christian communities in Asia Minor to make them adopt those. Also, both Mark and Matthew mention the Last Supper, and those evangelists certainly weren't influenced by any Egyptian practice, they were(especially Matthew) obedient Jews.
The Eucharist is indeed mentioned in I Corinthians 10:16-21 and 11:23-29. It is clear that it is a central part of Christian ritual even at this early date and that both bread and wine are holy. What isn't clear is whether it is taken literally, i.e. whether it involves transubstantiation. Jesus' words may be read, as most protestants do, as symbolic both in the Gospels and in Paul's letter, in which case the holiness betokens respect for the symbol rather than the substance. There are passages where Jesus is clearly speaking metaphorically when he says he is, for example, a door or a vine. As is usually the case, the Biblical evidence depends on interpretation.

Martin Luther claimed, wrongly, that it was a twelfth-century innovation as that's when the word transubstantiation was introduced. But there is evidence from the second century that at least some Christians (e.g. Justin Martyr) believed that the bread was literally the flesh of Christ. That's still a fairly early date but it's after the Jewish War of 66-70 AD when Christianity took on a more gentile character to distance itself from the now politically distrusted Jews.
 
That's precisely what transubstantiation is about; the physical transformation of the bread and wine into the flesh and blood of Christ. Therefore one would expect that the bread and wine, after the sacrament has been performed, would contain human DNA. Clearly it does not, as such a thing would be scientifically impossible.

No. Transsubstantiation, as per its name, means that the substance of the bread and wine is changed, while their external appearances("accidents" in the Christian terminology) remain unchanged. Now you seem to claim that while the external, macroscopic appearance of bread and wine amount to 'accidents', for some reason there are "molecules" that represent the substance thereof, and therefore must be changed in order for transsubstantiation to occur. This if of course wrong. There is no difference in this respect between the macroscopic, visible aspect of bread and wine and their molecular setup. Both are images established by the way of human senses, and therefore "accidents", which do not change in case of transsubstantiation. What does change is the substance, or the thing-in-itself of you want, that is by definition unobservable and therefore outside of the realm of science.

It is easy to understand therefore that this doctrine of transsubstantiation was precisely developed in order to refute "objections" based on the fact that the bread and wine do not change their observable appearance. It is carefully worded in exactly such a way so that it cannot, by definition, be disproven by any scientific observation or experiment of any kind. Do not try to outsmart scholastic theologians, they were not as stupid as you think, and they surely knew their logics :)
The Eucharist is indeed mentioned in I Corinthians 10:16-21 and 11:23-29. It is clear that it is a central part of Christian ritual even at this early date and that both bread and wine are holy. What isn't clear is whether it is taken literally, i.e. whether it involves transubstantiation. Jesus' words may be read, as most protestants do, as symbolic both in the Gospels and in Paul's letter, in which case the holiness betokens respect for the symbol rather than the substance. There are passages where Jesus is clearly speaking metaphorically when he says he is, for example, a door or a vine. As is usually the case, the Biblical evidence depends on interpretation.

Martin Luther claimed, wrongly, that it was a twelfth-century innovation as that's when the word transubstantiation was introduced. But there is evidence from the second century that at least some Christians (e.g. Justin Martyr) believed that the bread was literally the flesh of Christ. That's still a fairly early date but it's after the Jewish War of 66-70 AD when Christianity took on a more gentile character to distance itself from the now politically distrusted Jews.

You are right, thank you for interesting details btw, very appreciated. I just wanted to stress out that the Eucharist seems to have existed at least in some form or another, since the very beginning of Christianity and therefore I believe it unlikely for it to have been outright borrowed from a pagan sacrificial cult. Of course, the meaning and the practice of the Eucharist has evolved in many ways since its origins.
 
Catholic and Orthodox Eucharist has little in common with original Christianity, and is basically a pagan perversion of original Christ's teaching. First of all Christians not supposed to have ritualistic priests to administer the Communion, anyone who believes in Christ and was water baptized can administer the Communion. After Christ's sacrifice and resurrection, we have only one high priest and intercessor between us and God now- Jesus Christ. Catholics and Orthodox heretics however have impudently and unbiblicaly installed priests and whole army of canonized saints as intercessors between the believers and God.

“Because the Eucharist is the central focus of the mass and “the end” of the sacramental system, we begin with it, and especially the priest’s role.

Hocus Pocus and the Eucharist

Turning to an official Catholic systematic theology text for its definition, “The Eucharist is that Sacrament, in which Christ, under the forms of bread and wine, is truly present, with His Body and Blood, in order to offer Himself in an unbloody manner to the Heavenly Father, and to give Himself to the faithful as nourishment for their souls.”

The Council of Trent made this more precise, “by the consecration of the bread and wine a conversion takes place of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord, and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of His blood. This conversion is appropriately and properly called transubstantiation by the Catholic Church.”

That this priestly act seems like sorcery is superficially illustrated by the etymology of the common phrase “hocus pocus” often employed by stage magicians. It is thought to be derivative of the Latin used in the mass, “Hoc est enim corpus meum,” which translates to “this is my body.” While this connection to stage magic seems quaint, sanctioned Catholic apologists remove all doubt as to the priest’s appalling role in the Eucharist. John O’Brien’s popular Catholic apologetics work, The Faith of Millions: The Credentials of the Catholic Religion, is considered a classic defense and accurate explanation of Roman Catholic faith and practice. What follows is a thorough explanation of the priest’s role in the Eucharist:

"The supreme power of the priestly office is the power of consecrating. “No act is greater,” says St. Thomas, “than the consecration of the body of Christ.” In this essential phase of the sacred ministry, the power of the priest is not surpassed by that of the bishop, the archbishop, the cardinal or the pope. Indeed it is equal to that of Jesus Christ. For in this role the priest speaks with the voice and the authority of God Himself. When the priest pronounces his tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens, brings Christ down from his throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors: it is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed it is greater even than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the Blessed Virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal Victim for the sins of man—not once but a thousand times! The priest speaks and lo! Christ, the eternal and omnipotent God, bows his head in humble obedience to the priests command."

We find this description to be utterly flabbergasting. This is no archaic relic of the medieval period, it was published in 1974 and by reading the reviews at Amazon you will encounter the widely held sentiment that this book will lead “you to believe that the Roman Catholic faith is more logical and reasonable than that of other Christian denominations or groups.” To the contrary, it makes us want to vomit. It is so transparently demonic. It has the prideful imprint of Satan written all over it. The sheer unmitigated gall it takes to conceive of ordering the sovereign Lord down from heaven in head-bowed obedience is beyond comprehension. It reeks of evil. The quote above is outrageously blasphemous on a number of levels. Recalling the aforementioned definition of magic as the “Attempt to influence or control people or events through supernatural forces. These forces are called upon by means of ceremonies, the recitation of spells, charms, incantations, and other forms of ritual,” we ask: “In the Mass, is the priest said to influence events, people, and things with ceremonies and the recitation of incantations to control supernatural forces?” Indeed, the priest is said to be even more powerful than angels and to have the authority of God, Himself! Not only does he control people or events, he allegedly controls Christ. The priest ostensibly reaches up into the heavens, knocks Him off His throne, and offers Him up on “our altar as the eternal Victim.” Of course, we deny that any of this really occurs; it is a satanic lie. In reality, Christ triumphed by the onetime event of the cross (cf. Col 2:15).

Satan must relish this most blasphemous ritual’s characterization of the victorious Lord as an eternal victim. Even so, the most tangible act of sorcery is the mental manipulation performed on the unfortunate millions who are led by the apostate priests. Although we find it very offensive, our opinion of the Eucharist is not merely emotional, it profanes everything we hold to be sacred.The apostle Paul made an erudite assertion with, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (2 Tim 3:16). Speaking of Christ, the Bible says, "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself” (Heb 7:26–27; underline added). The comparison in Hebrews is with the Old Testament priesthood who offered up animals for sin. The Bible could not be much clearer than “needeth not daily” and “for this he did once.” Once is the operative term which the Holy Spirit inspired repeatedly throughout Hebrews. Rome’s theology is a one-hundred-and-eighty-degree inversion of what Hebrews unequivocally teaches, because the Eucharist is a sacrifice that is repeated day after day all over the world. Please consider another passage from Hebrews 9 (and just in case one might think there is a Protestant bias in the Authorized Version, this time we will quote from Rome’s sanctioned NAB translation):

"For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf. Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him." (Hebrews 9:24–28, NAB)

Oh, how we do eagerly await him! The passage speaks for itself and we only cited the NAB version to show that they are without excuse. It really could not be any clearer that the Roman mass is a disgraceful sacrilege. It really seems that God anticipated the apostasy of the Eucharist because yet again in Hebrews we read,“But this one offered one sacrifice for sins, and took his seat forever at the right hand of God; now he waits until his enemies are made his footstool. For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated” (Heb 10:12–14). If you accept the authority of the Bible, there really is no possible way to reconcile the Roman sacrificial system. It is a deception by which they instill fear to keep the real victims, the parishioners, coming back for more. Do you disagree with the Roman mass as a sacrifice? Well if you do, Rome has a word for you, “If anyone says that in the Mass a true and real sacrifice is not offered to God, or that the act of offering is nothing else than Christ being given to us to eat: let him be anathema.” - excerpt from Petrus-Romanus: The Final Pope Is Here by Thomas Horn*
 
Last edited:
No. Transsubstantiation, as per its name, means that the substance of the bread and wine is changed, while their external appearances("accidents" in the Christian terminology) remain unchanged. Now you seem to claim that while the external, macroscopic appearance of bread and wine amount to 'accidents', for some reason there are "molecules" that represent the substance thereof, and therefore must be changed in order for transsubstantiation to occur. This if of course wrong. There is no difference in this respect between the macroscopic, visible aspect of bread and wine and their molecular setup. Both are images established by the way of human senses, and therefore "accidents", which do not change in case of transsubstantiation. What does change is the substance, or the thing-in-itself of you want, that is by definition unobservable and therefore outside of the realm of science.

That runs immediately into the issue of how do you know the ceremony in fact achieves that result. As opposed to getting us another prophets blood (like say Moses) or, God forbid, other parts of Jesus. Or that another ceremony is the conversion of blood and that Jesus just wanted communion for people to eat together. These things happen when you play telephone with metaphysics.
 
Yes of course - it is a question of faith, which is after all normal for a religious doctrine. But what is interesting with transsubstantiation is that its denial is ALSO made into a question of faith. You can claim you don't believe that the bread turns into Jesus' body, but you cannot objectively prove it.
 
Crazy long post

Well, someone has a rather jaundiced view of Catholics and the Orthodox, and has zero knowledge whatsoever of what the early Christians believed about the Eucharist and practiced.

That runs immediately into the issue of how do you know the ceremony in fact achieves that result. As opposed to getting us another prophets blood (like say Moses) or, God forbid, other parts of Jesus. Or that another ceremony is the conversion of blood and that Jesus just wanted communion for people to eat together. These things happen when you play telephone with metaphysics.

If you believe that any change is effected by consecration at all, why wouldn't you believe that the result is the desired one? In other words, if it is God's power that enables the conversion of bread and wine to the Body and Blood of Christ, why would it become anything other than what God himself has stated that He intends it to become? There really are only two reasonable options - that nothing happens at all, or that it becomes exactly what we Catholics believe it becomes.
 
Well, someone has a rather jaundiced view of Catholics and the Orthodox, and has zero knowledge whatsoever of what the early Christians believed about the Eucharist and practiced.
Eucharist and transubstantiation is a later erroneous invention, only came to church centuries later. If something is not fully supported by the Scripture, then it's erroneous. New Testament is model of the real Church, and was written centuries before eucharist and transubstantiation were unbiblicaly added to church and forced upon the believers.

The concept of an ongoing sacrifice is wholly foreign to Scripture. Christ finished the work of salvation on the cross (John 19:30). He wishes us to remember Him, not sacrifice Him. Hebrews Ch. 10 states in no uncertain terms that the sacrifice of Christ was ‘once for all’ — never to be repeated or continued in any form (Heb 10:18, 11-14). Furthermore, the Mass is called by Rome an ‘unbloody immolation’; yet where there is no blood shedding there can be no remission of sin or atonement (Lev 17:11, Heb 9:22).

After Christ completed the work of redemption, He sat down at the right hand of the Father. There He waits until His enemies become the footstool of His feet (Heb 10:12-13). Yet according to Roman Catholicism, Christ is rising from His throne tens of thousands of times each day, coming to earth and being re-presented to His Father as a true propitiatory victim for the sins of souls in purgatory and on earth. Thus the error of the Roman Catholic Mass and its core doctrine of transubstantiation is a great offence to heaven and a blasphemy against the finished work of Christ.
Here is the full text, it explains everything very well
http://www.webtruth.org/articles/theological-issues-23/transubstantiation-49.html

Communion is very important. When my heart is right with the Lord, Communion has renewing properties, always feel renewed both spiritually and physically after the Communion. If my heart is not, tend to get some corrective disciplining body ailment after the Communion ("because the person who has suffered in a mortal body has stopped sinning"- 1 Peter 4:1). Noticed many times on a day of Communion folks in church tend to be in most humble and repentant state, since they know better from their own past experience:

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. But if we judgedh ourselves truly, we would not be judged. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplinedi so that we may not be condemned along with the world." - 1 Cor. 11:27-32
 
Last edited:
Thanks, olddron, for setting out the Protestant case against transubstantiation. Interesting site, too, clearly a very well read preacher who's just a bit too lazy to actually engage with the philosophical arguments he opposes. Or to check his facts; he repeats Luther's mistake about when transubstantiation was introduced.

Also, I wonder about that last quote of yours (1 Corinthians 11:27-32) as Paul saying the body and blood of the Lord being present seems to contradict your point. I guess that's one we have to read figuratively, then. Honestly, it gets confusing. Some lines, if you take them literally, it's idolatry. Others, they're to be read absolutely literally and if you even think of metaphors, you're hellbound.
 
Its great for converting pagans.
"the body and blood of Christ you say?" YOU CONSUME THE POWER OF YOUR GOD? SIGN ME UP!" - probably what happened in central America circa 1500.
 
Matthew doesn't attack only the Jewish leadership in his tale of Jesus before Pilate:



It's "the crowd" or "the Jews of Jerusalem at large" if you prefer, who condemn Jesus, not only the Jewish leadership. Notice also how the blame is put squarely upon the shoulders not only of those Jews present in that crowd, but also upon their children's shoulders. This sentence has been one of the main justifications across the centuries for Christian persecutions against Jews.

I remain unconvinced that a Jew could have written that passage, and even less convinced about it being targeted at a Jewish audience.

Because the leaders are only doing so much persecuting. It is the masses of Jews, who fail to recognize the Messiah and persecute His followers who may naturally be focused upon. Again, it is like looking at Protestant polemic, or any number of other internecine feuds. The greatest enemy is often the one closest to you who nonetheless remains obstinate where it counts. Look at how Jesus spends so much time against the Pharisees compared to the far worse Saducees.
 
Because the leaders are only doing so much persecuting. It is the masses of Jews, who fail to recognize the Messiah and persecute His followers who may naturally be focused upon. Again, it is like looking at Protestant polemic, or any number of other internecine feuds. The greatest enemy is often the one closest to you who nonetheless remains obstinate where it counts. Look at how Jesus spends so much time against the Pharisees compared to the far worse Saducees.

Matthew's narrative of the events makes sense in the frame of an attack against Judaism, and especifically against post-70 AD Judaism. After the destruction of the Temple, the Sadducees as a class disappeared, and so attacking them would have been a waste of precious writing space in a document with an obvious proselythizing and controversial agenda. After the destruction of the Temple, it was the Pharisees who reestructured Judaism along the lines that have survived onto this day, as rabbinical Judaism. So, turning them into the main target of Jesus of Nazareth's criticism makes lots of sense. It also makes lots of sense that Matthew makes a fumble out of it, as while his Jesus attacks the Pharisees, he keeps exposing doctrines that are essentially Pharisaic in nature; any Jew minimally versed in the Judaic religious developments of that time would have realized it immediately, which adds yet another reason to doubt that Matthew's Gospel was addressed to a Jewish audience (unless they were truly clueless Jews :D).