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Minor states of East Africa which i would like to see

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radiatoren said:
Thanks for taking the time. It makes it much easier to discuss!

So you represent it as part of the 13 kingdoms of Beja? What kind of sources does the book cite? As far as I can find, it is still somewhat uncertain what exact entity it was, since it existed during the Nubian/Makurian empire, but that is mostly from before a lot of the newest research and archeological finds.

Still, I would love to have some entities represented in the area untill a more suitable mechanic can be developed to simulate the complete upheaval of statedom. The greater Makurian area surely was beaten up by this time since the last sign of any rule of Nubia had disappeared 50 years before. Even if the primarily arabic nomads weren't very literate and most traders avoided their continuously looted regions, it wasn't uninhabited or even inhabited by unskilled people.
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Nooo, god freaking damn. This is damn Makuria, this is Dotawo, a Christian, black African, NUBIAN kingdom. The sucessor of medieval Makuria and Nobadia. The only realm with political structure except of Alodia. No 13 Bedscha kingdoms or stuff like that.
And my book dates from 2013 and includes the newest archaeological researches, so could you please accept and understand what i said how it is meant to be?
Sorry, but i start to loose patience...

In order to keep these provinces relevant, I say keep them under Makuria (and, as I said, perhaps expand the nation a bit), but make Makuria's state religion Sunni and most of the provinces Coptic (which will likely be the actual set up) and make outer provinces highly autonomous.
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Oooooor, you just implement Makuria how it really was in 1444 AD. A small, souvereign Christian state with no power, but with an ancient culture.


To face the uncolonized land (Which are still filled up with mostly Christians), which is making up of the current southern Makurian provinces, one have two possibilities:

1. When Sennar arrise, they get a script which allows them to grab the uncolonized provinces south of Makuria very fast. Would represent history pretty well.
2. You give the current lands to some arabic-nubian tribes. Wouldnt be very historical, as i already mentioned, that there was absolutly NO political structure after the fall of Dongola in 1365 AD between the 2. and 5. cataract.
On the other other hand, it would be more historical then the current Makurian extension though. Would allow also more action.

You decide.
 
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Oh God, it's like you think that book of yours is the holy Bible or something.

It's sooooo small, why can't you accept that Paradox made it larger and Banu Kanz-controlled? They did this with more nations and it's totally understandable. Even Ulm had more impact on history than this excuse of a state*. And look how small it is...



*In this timeperiod
 
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Mingmung said:
Oh God, it's like you think that book of yours is the holy Bible or something.
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No wonder, as it obviously offers more informations then all your (Wikipedia-) links together.

Even Ulm had more impact on history than this excuse of a state
*In this timeperiod
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Ok. But then we also have to make Byzantium bigger. And all the vasall-minors should just be France. Ah, and dont forget the dozens minor states in India. The mighty Siberian clans also. And all the other powerful minor states which are already ingame.

why can't you accept that Paradox made it larger and Banu Kanz-controlled?
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Because it f:wub:cking wasnt historicaly.


And now go provocate anywhere else, you disqualified yourself from this discussion.
 
I posted three sources which were not from wikipedia. The situation of this kingdom in this timeperiod is debatable and there are multiple sources telling us things, but not one is 100% correct, because there is just not enough evidence. So Paradox chose to, what was in their eyes, the best option (keeping gameplay in mind too).
 
I understand why PDS haven't wanted to represent the Nubian region accurately before. It was divided in loads of micro statelets (mostly nomadic Arabs) and we know nothing about what was going on, except for the conversion to Islam that largely happened. Most books on East Africa say nothing more than: We don't know, when trying to describe the 13 and 1400s.
 
yourworstnightm said:
I understand why PDS haven't wanted to represent the Nubian region accurately before. It was divided in loads of micro statelets (mostly nomadic Arabs) and we know nothing about what was going on, except for the conversion to Islam that largely happened. Most books on East Africa say nothing more than: We don't know, when trying to describe the 13 and 1400s.
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Exactly.
 
yourworstnightm said:
I understand why PDS haven't wanted to represent the Nubian region accurately before. It was divided in loads of micro statelets (mostly nomadic Arabs) and we know nothing about what was going on, except for the conversion to Islam that largely happened. Most books on East Africa say nothing more than: We don't know, when trying to describe the 13 and 1400s.
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Yeah, just ignore what i wrote over and over again and continue writing "We know nothing".
You also disqualified yourself now..
 
What kind of sources does the book cite?
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Ahh, sorry radiatoren, forget that.
Lets say it like this: The bibliography of the book is 67 (page 427-494) pages long. No shit! I will attach some screens as proof. He used everything one can use: Polish (Poles are very advanced in Nubiology), German, English, Arabic and other sources. Most stuff we know about post 1365 era are documents from Qasr Ibrim, which were released recently (Though not all) so you wont find anything specific about Dotawo of the late era if your sources are older then around 5 years.

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Do you understand the term 'gameplay reasons'? I completely understand the historic reasons you've given us here on this thread, but, having an OPM Makuria/Darfuro either bordering the Mamluks or in the middle of 'colonizable' areas is utterly idiotic for the current gameplay. See, they made Makuria as it is because then it has a possibility to do something on the map, to expand, to survive. If they had made it the way you want it to be made, it would either always be conquered by the Mamluks or do nothing until the Sennar/Funj appear and annex them. They might as well as not be on the map.
Granted, if the map could be more detailed and with more tags in the immediate area, I would fully support you(and also that gameplay itself would be largely overhauled). But EUIV is made to run on a wide range of computers, and adding even more tags than they've already done would have made it impossible to optimize the game enough to be played by just about everyone. You can either try to shove this 'issue' down the devs throats now when they, I'm sure, absolutely won't do it, or you can try and calm down and either make a mod yourself of wait for EUV, where you'll probably be able to get their attention. I think they have done a great job, but you ask for it to be perfect, which, as it stands right now, absolutely can not be!
 
shadowsc2 said:
Do you understand the term 'gameplay reasons'? I completely understand the historic reasons you've given us here on this thread, but, having an OPM Makuria/Darfuro either bordering the Mamluks or in the middle of 'colonizable' areas is utterly idiotic for the current gameplay. See, they made Makuria as it is because then it has a possibility to do something on the map, to expand, to survive. If they had made it the way you want it to be made, it would either always be conquered by the Mamluks or do nothing until the Sennar/Funj appear and annex them.
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I will just mention nations like Albania, Byzantium, Trebizond, Granada and Theodoro.
 
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LinusLinothorax said:
I just will mention nations like Albania, Byzantium, Trebizond, Granada and Theodoro.
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Not wanting to be rude, but the correct structure is 'I will just' not 'I just will'.

Yes, they all seem to be doomed, but they all have at least an outside chance of surviving(except for Albania). The Makuria you suggest won't even have that, since it's only *possible* ally will be Ethiopa, and they'll be crashed to cinders by the Mamluks or if they by any chance survive by the Ottos.
 
shadowsc2 said:
The Makuria you suggest won't even have that, since it's only *possible* ally will be Ethiopia
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Dont forget Alodia.

and they'll be crashed to cinders by the Mamluks or if they by any chance survive by the Ottos.
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And this is what happened to them historicaly, they were doomed to die. Why should one extremly buff nations unhistoricaly just for let them survive? This is like adding the half Iberian penisula for Granada. Or the southern Balkan for Albania.
 
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LinusLinothorax said:
I will just mention nations like Albania, Byzantium, Trebizond, Granada and Theodoro.
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You can´t compare those nations with your little country.

And this is what happened to them historicaly, they were doomed to die. Why should one buff nations unhistoricaly just for let them survive?
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This game is an alternate universe simulator, not a railroaded historical lesson.

I will say it again, the Makuria you describe is simply too insignificant and vague to be included.
 
LinusLinothorax said:
Dont forget Alodia.


And this is what happened to them historicaly, they were doomed to die. Why should one extremly buff nations unhistoricaly just for let them survive? This is like adding the half Iberian penisula for Granada. Or the southern Balkan for Albania.
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Thing is, as Mingmung *did* point out right, EUIV is not a history simulator. You have to give nations a small chance to survive, however cheesy it would be, and your Makuria, even being allied with Alodia and Ethiopia, would have been burnt to the ground since they are not powerful enough to defend against Mamluks/Ottos/Other Player State. Only players such as DDRJake and I'm assuming you would find it very much entertaining.
 
LinusLinothorax said:
Ignore him, he just wants to provocate and has no clue what he is talking about.
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Don't talk to me in such a way.


Btw, there is far more known about Theodoro, its history, foreign relations and its people than of this little remnant of a kingdom. I don't like to compare all these little tags with each other, but you kind of leave me no choice.
 
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