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Please allow unreformed pagan to go fuedal

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Aaronomus said:
Ancient Carthage is an example of a historical noble republic of "reformed" pagans.
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I can see why merchant republic doesn't quite fit.. but why would you say they were reformed pagans? What ties them closer to the already reformed religions of the game then it does the unreformed ones?

raistlin_wizard said:
I mean, you say you're civilized enough to be a merchant, but how do you convince your horde to stop pillaging and trade instead?
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Didn't vikings actually do a whole lot of trade with some groups like the muslims in that time?

Merchant republics still seem like an easy switch for them to me.
 
BritNavFan said:
Nobody was thinking "let's recreate the institution of the Catholic Church, but with pictures of Thor in the stained-glass windows."
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On thinking about, I'm wrong. Julian "the Apostate" wanted to recreate the institution of the Church, but with pictures of Apollo in the stained-glass windows. But it's no coincidence that he was an apostate. People who weren't raised Christian just didn't think that way.
 
CaptainChiatrol said:
I can see why merchant republic doesn't quite fit.. but why would you say they were reformed pagans? What ties them closer to the already reformed religions of the game then it does the unreformed ones?.
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An organised church and dogma for starters wich makes them closer to hellenic than the unreformed pagan religion.
 
tman144 said:
That said, I think unreformed pagans should be able to become a merchant republic no problem. The patrician families aren't that big a leap from tribes. The only extra requirement would be that you have enough tribal vassals to turn into patrician families.
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but that means you are unable to be a Norse Pagan OPM merchent republic, thats the only way to get 5 vassals. Perhaps your 5 council members could become the families and you'd need to hire new ones?
 
I like how unreformed pagans are tribal. It gives you some incentive to either reform or adopt one of the formal religions. It's fairly easy to expand as a tribe, but elective gavelkind splits it up so you don't become too powerful too fast. There are advantages and disadvantages to each system. Now if you just want to power game and QQ because it's already 900 ad and you don't own all of Scandinavia yet then I can't help you.
 
Hardin4188 said:
I like how unreformed pagans are tribal. It gives you some incentive to either reform or adopt one of the formal religions.
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Even if you reform, your situation doesn't improve all that much. You are still tribal and you are still stuck with that ****ty Elective Gravelkind :(
 
My biggest issue with the arguments in favor of allowing feudal pagans is the implication that being tribal is a gimp to be dropped at the soonest possible moment. Sure, it has its drawbacks, but it also has some massive advantages.

Try actually playing a game where you make no effort to go feudal for the first century. While you're at it, try just accepting the reality of gavelkind, rather than trying to game it so you don't lose titles on death. Blob around like crazy, die, and then blob some more with your allied brothers, or else just conquer their lands back. Blob some more. Spend prestige on upgrades, use your steward to settle your culture. Die again, and repeat; by the 10th century, your dynastic prestige could be astronomical, and you'll have lain the groundwork for a massive stable mid-game empire.
 
I had been looking around for some new game ideas, and I saw some posts about using Norse conquests to setup Merchant Republics. I understand it could be OP if min-maxed, but I was planning on having fun staying small-ish in a me vs. them type setting. This was before CM, so now I'm wondering: is it still possible to use conquests/invasions to gain a duchy, set myself up as the county liege holding only a city, and give away/lose all other holdings to become the MR? Will this bypass the new requirements for reforming the religion and building up authority?
 
Hardin4188 said:
Now if you just want to power game and QQ because it's already 900 ad and you don't own all of Scandinavia yet then I can't help you.
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I don't want all of Scandinavia. I just want to sit on my island and trade. Gotland Norse Pagan Republic. Thankfully, someone modded out that assinine requirement so I'll go have fun and you can continue being condecending
 
I know most of us switch out of gavelkind as soon as possible, but it's not the end of the world to keep it for awhile. Eventually you will get tired of power gaming. It's not the end of the world if the game ends without becoming an empire. Besides importing empires into eu iv is a snooze fest anyway.

TheChronoMaster said:
Being reformed or converted lets you switch to plain ol' gavelkind, even as a tribal lord.
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Isn't elective gavelkind better though? If your realm is being split up anyway you might as well be able to choose who gets the primary title.

Lambert2191 said:
I don't want all of Scandinavia. I just want to sit on my island and trade. Gotland Norse Pagan Republic. Thankfully, someone modded out that assinine requirement so I'll go have fun and you can continue being condecending
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Really though how many norse pagan republics were there? Yes it's fun to make one in game, but it's supposed to be difficult because it didn't really happen a lot.
 
Hardin4188 said:
I know most of us switch out of gavelkind as soon as possible, but it's not the end of the world to keep it for awhile. Eventually you will get tired of power gaming. It's not the end of the world if the game ends without becoming an empire. Besides importing empires into eu iv is a snooze fest anyway.
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The problem is it gives away your capital territories on occasion. I'm fine with losing provinces, but if I've invested in certain provinces, I'd like to be able to keep them.
 
The conversation has kinda passed this by, but I think the real reason that you need to convert to Christianity (or Islam) is that you need the literate and educated clergy to help you govern your now State-level society. While Paradox doesn't make it very clear, I think that the transition from Tribal to Fuedal or Republic really models transitioning from a "ranked" society to a "state" level society. Ranked and state level societies are anthropological concepts (I am procrastinating on a Master's Degree in archaeology at the moment;)) I would highly recommend researching these terms a little.

Also, keep in mind that technology and social organization are (sort of) two different things. Just because you have good material technology, doesn't me your social organization permits you to be civilized or govern a state. States Require:

Codified laws
A food surplus for...
full-time craft specialists
social Stratification
monumental works
a dense population
Literacy

Norse pagans did not really have all of these things. In fact, as an earlier poster noted, one big incentive for Norse Kings to convert was the governance resources that the Church could put into their hands. Earlier in history, Clovis did the same thing. The idea is, when you reform your pagan religion, you have created a class of literate craft specialists (your now literate clergy), that can form the basis of the bureaucracy that you neede to run your shiny new state.
 
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