Is this or have other HoI games given the allies an advantage where it is easier to attain victory for the Allies vs the Axis? If so, how strong of an advantage will it be or has it been?
Midas
Midas
Is this or have other HoI games given the allies an advantage where it is easier to attain victory for the Allies vs the Axis? If so, how strong of an advantage will it be or has it been?
Midas
I don't think the game has ever given the allies an advantage that they didn't already have at the beginning of WWII. In fact in HOI2 and HOI3 France was purposefully nerfed to make the game flow always happen with Germany beating France.
HOI4 is moving away from this with the division builder and experience requirements etc, so technically France could be on equal terms as Germany as was the case in WWII, but simply suffers division issues.
From a purely "paper" standpoint, France looked to be a tough fight for Germany. FRA had considerably more tanks, many of them more powerful than the Germans had. France also had a large infantry force which should have been more than sufficient to stop Germany at the Maginot Line and at several of the rivers to the north.
In practice, German operational doctrines, combined arms tactics, and sheer speed of advance rendered most of the French advantages moot. France spread its armor out in direct support of its infantry, meaning that a German Armor Company frequently faced 2-3 French tanks at a time: a series of one-sided massacres. The French airforce was heavily damaged on the ground before it had a chance to fight. That gave German Stukas a free hand to shoot up or bomb anything that moved. If it had come down to a direct head-on confrontation between concentrated forces, that could have gone badly for Germany. There were several smaller clashes in which the French Army handled itself respectably well. Germany essentially won by NOT fighting most of the French army, but by maneuvering and cutting it off from supply and reinforcements. The French leadership was unable to to react in time, or in some cases failed to react at all. The French did not lose on the basis of being "outnumbered" or "outgunned", they lost by obsolete methodology and a few incompetent leaders at the top.
And this is now being modeled by the "doctrine" research providing bonuses to troops in HOI4. Blitzkreig doctrine will provide many bonuses to troops in the early parts of its research, but by the final research the other trees have caught up to the bonuses.
So now on paper Germany = France, but German troops would have better leadership, morale, organization (basically all the things they did have) over france. On top of this France will probably start with smaller divisions (maybe 3 brigades) which means less combined arms bonuses and won't be able to move to 4 or 5 like Germany because they wouldn't have the XP until the war starts.
Germany essentially won by NOT fighting most of the French army, but by maneuvering and cutting it off from supply and reinforcements. The French leadership was unable to to react in time, or in some cases failed to react at all. The French did not lose on the basis of being "outnumbered" or "outgunned", they lost by obsolete methodology and a few incompetent leaders at the top.
From a purely "paper" standpoint, France looked to be a tough fight for Germany. FRA had considerably more tanks, many of them more powerful than the Germans had. France also had a large infantry force which should have been more than sufficient to stop Germany at the Maginot Line and at several of the rivers to the north.
In practice, German operational doctrines, combined arms tactics, and sheer speed of advance rendered most of the French advantages moot. France spread its armor out in direct support of its infantry, meaning that a German Armor Company frequently faced 2-3 French tanks at a time: a series of one-sided massacres. The French airforce was heavily damaged on the ground before it had a chance to fight. That gave German Stukas a free hand to shoot up or bomb anything that moved. If it had come down to a direct head-on confrontation between concentrated forces, that could have gone badly for Germany. There were several smaller clashes in which the French Army handled itself respectably well. Germany essentially won by NOT fighting most of the French army, but by maneuvering and cutting it off from supply and reinforcements. The French leadership was unable to to react in time, or in some cases failed to react at all. The French did not lose on the basis of being "outnumbered" or "outgunned", they lost by obsolete methodology and a few incompetent leaders at the top.
Also, radio. Every panzer was equipped with radio, while french tanks didn't. Orders were badly relayed down the line. Overall, I think a french player should be able to fare much better than historical, holding off the germans if enough effort is done.
That sounds good except for one major point.
If the armies are well represented vis a vis history, how is Germany supposed to fare well assuming the French player does not advance heavily into Belgium allowing most of his forces to be cutoff? If the French simply hold at the Belgian border and have enough defense in depth to avoid breakthrough and encirclement, Germany is then forced to slog its way to Paris. Even if they are able to do this it will be much slower and costlier than history.
The latter wouldn't be an issue in SP games. There is still a significant number who play MP.
Perhaps MP groups will need to include a house rule such that no one can play France.
Same way it fared well in Russia. Break the line, don`t let armies retreat. France simply didn`t had the territory to sustain loses and rebuild divisions as USSR did.That sounds good except for one major point.
If the armies are well represented vis a vis history, how is Germany supposed to fare well assuming the French player does not advance heavily into Belgium allowing most of his forces to be cutoff? If the French simply hold at the Belgian border and have enough defense in depth to avoid breakthrough and encirclement, Germany is then forced to slog its way to Paris. Even if they are able to do this it will be much slower and costlier than history.
The "greater number of radios" of German tanks are mostly a myth. French tanks had radios, most of them anyway. Also, Russians also were not that much behind on radios either.Also, radio. Every panzer was equipped with radio, while french tanks didn't. Orders were badly relayed down the line. Overall, I think a french player should be able to fare much better than historical, holding off the germans if enough effort is done.
No myth.The "greater number of radios" of German tanks are mostly a myth. French tanks had radios, most of them anyway. Also, Russians also were not that much behind on radios either.
France spread its armor out in direct support of its infantry, meaning that a German Armor Company frequently faced 2-3 French tanks at a time: a series of one-sided massacres. The French airforce was heavily damaged on the ground before it had a chance to fight.
yeah the contrast in doctrine was stark. The germans simply jumped from ww1 tactics to modern warfare very quickly. The french had a doctrine to use tanks to support infantry and the heavy ones to assault enemy positions not much removed from ww1 thinking while the germans realised you could mass your tanks to punch a hole quickly in enemy lines and cut of their supplies and communications.
That's actually not really true, and is the History Channel version laced with a bit of French/British apologism (really, the French and Brits tried very hard to make it as though the Germans were so superior in 1940. In reality, it was discovered by the Americans in 1944 that the French and Brits had completely lied about the Order of Battle of 1940, and the French/British actually had more tanks than the Germans).
The French actually began the war with an outstanding all-armed motorized formation - the 7th Army - which included two Panzer Division equivalents, a pair of elite motorized Divisions, and a couple of other motorized outfits. While not yet quite a Panzer Army in terms of doctrine, this outfit - plus another half a dozen or so armored and mechanized Divisions - shows that the idea that the French didn't concentrate tanks was fiction. The French "penny-packeted" their tanks to an extent - but these were mostly old and slow tanks (eg H35) meant for infantry support. Moreover, to think that this penny-packeting is wrong is to fly in the face of the German and American OOB in 1944 - both of which also "penny packeted" armor in support of their infantry Divisions (the Germans typically allocating one company of assault guns per infantry Division, while the Americans allocated a battalion of Shermans).
The real problem is that the French high command made a mistake, which ran contrary against doctrine. Instead of keeping 7th Army in reserve at Reims - where it was about 2 day's march away from Sedan at worse - they instead decided to spend their reserves immediately to try and extend the battle line in Belgium so that they could link up with the Dutch in Breda. Hence, this superb all-arms reserve, instead of facing the main effort of the German army, was stuck in Belgium against the German diversionary effort.
All of the problems encountered by the French at Sedan - including sending tiny numbers of tanks against entire Panzer Divisions - was actually a function of a lack of reserves rather than the lack of armored/mechanized formations that can go head-to-head against a Panzer Army. This is why the Panzers were able to avoid fighting for the most part - the French had no units at all to stop them, because all the reserves were stuck in Belgium/Holland. This is a mistake in generalship, not doctrine or army composition, and it's been basically covered up to excuse the bad decisions of Gamelin.
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Finally, French aircraft were not caught on the ground napping (that's the issue with the Poles and Soviets). They did however lack fighters because the French were very focused on tactical bombing while forgetting you need to establish air superiority first; and in any case the Reich did in fact invest far more in their air force before the war and were thus in a much more advanced state than the French.