Kill the son

I think plots to kill children will still be imposible

Kinda bonkers.

I understand that you can't kill your children, not many parents are ready to do that, but there seriously should be a way to disinherit Imbecile and Inbred heirs.

Isn't there an option to make him a monk? AFAIK that removes him from succession.

Unready said:

Not a primary heir.

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Not ANY heir to your titles, if I recall correctly.

Lord Finnish said:

Kinda bonkers.

I understand that you can't kill your children, not many parents are ready to do that, but there seriously should be a way to disinherit Imbecile and Inbred heirs.

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You should not be able to do that, I don't think many medieval rulers cared that much about those things. It was really a renaissance thing to start to care about how much your kids can do and how you could best run your realm. I am for being able to kill your own children with some maluses applied to the plot power, many people will go like "Shit, killing kids? No thank you." Rightfully so.

How are your own direct children exempt from this rule while your grandchildren are not? How are your own children, adult and child, unkillable but it is somehow morally okay to kill someone else's infant son?

Unready said:

In medieval times I always guessed parent may kill deformed and ill children to free them from burden of earth life.
So if Kings old son is drooling imbecile and the King had another healthy son, how to make things right?

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I doubt that. Christian morals of the middle ages would strongly prohibit that kind of eugenics.

Disinheritance is all that is needed.

postm00v said:

Isn't there an option to make him a monk? AFAIK that removes him from succession.

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Not the heir, not under gavelkind, not for non-Christians.

This is a very concerning problem.

I would like to be able to disinherit people. I mean someone who's practically comatose would generally be skipped over in favour of a sibling. Additionally, someone who was imprisoned by either their father or a powerful vassal stood pretty much zero chance of being crowned unless someone liked them enough to actually let them out.

Maybe something like a crippling negative condition like incapable, imbecile or inbred. Maybe also as a stick to bludgeon children who don't do what you want them to; especially as overwhelmingly for your heir what you're trying to force them to do is in their interest anyway.

Lord Finnish said:

Kinda bonkers.

I understand that you can't kill your children, not many parents are ready to do that, but there seriously should be a way to disinherit Imbecile and Inbred heirs.

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I agree, even William the conqueror disinherited his first son, Robert, he only had the duchy of Normandy.
Or Herbert Karling, count of Vermandois, disinherited his only mad son, ending the Karling dynasty.

But it should be restricted to extreme cases (like inbred or mad) maybe with prestige loss depending on the reason :
- 500 for no reason
- 100 for inbred, weak, imbecile,
- free for mad, lunatic,

This restriction on killing your children is stupid IMHO.
There is still the kinslayer risk if discovered, to make it so that people won't abuse it.

Picchen said:

I agree, even William the conqueror disinherited his first son, Robert, he only had the duchy of Normandy.
Or Herbert Karling, count of Vermandois, disinherited his only mad son, ending the Karling dynasty.

But it should be restricted to extreme cases (like inbred or mad) maybe with prestige loss depending on the reason :
- 500 for no reason
- 100 for inbred, weak, imbecile,
- free for mad, lunatic,

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That is ridiculous, you would not be less looked down upon if you killed your son if they had deformations! Even more so, perhaps, as you are supposed to protect the weak.

Picchen said:

I agree, even William the conqueror disinherited his first son, Robert, he only had the duchy of Normandy.
Or Herbert Karling, count of Vermandois, disinherited his only mad son, ending the Karling dynasty.

But it should be restricted to extreme cases (like inbred or mad) maybe with prestige loss depending on the reason :
- 500 for no reason
- 100 for inbred, weak, imbecile,
- free for mad, lunatic,

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All I think is needed:
- Heir is inbred or imbecile.
What happens:
- Heir is moved out of succession,
- the new heir gets small prestige penalty "not legal heir" or something of the type.

Unready said:

But If I am playing Pagan?

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Pagans should have an even easier time disinheriting unfit heirs.

Tufto said:

Not the heir, not under gavelkind, not for non-Christians.

This is a very concerning problem.

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Excepting imprisonment.

I can confirm doing this recently.

Though only for Christians. This is going to be problematic.

Lord Finnish said:

I doubt that. Christian morals of the middle ages would strongly prohibit that kind of eugenics.

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Probably, but people doing that would not flaunt it anyway. They would do the deed discretely and make it look like a natural death (which would be even more plausible if the child is already of a weak constitution in the first place).

Only when getting caught would people be frown upon, which is the reflected in-game by the kinslayer trait.

Someone mentioned this recently in another thread. To disinherit your first born you do the following in this specific order...

1. Grant him Castle Holding
2. Grant him Temple holding
3. Revoke Castle Holding

Could someone confirm?

Lord Finnish said:

All I think is needed:
- Heir is inbred or imbecile.
What happens:
- Heir is moved out of succession,
- the new heir gets small prestige penalty "not legal heir" or something of the type.

Pagans should have an even easier time disinheriting unfit heirs.

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I would rather prefer mad/lunatic/inbred/imbecile/possessed
Heir with trait disinherited (-50 opinion of you and the new heir,.. ) and strong claim on your main title
New heir with trait "wrong heir" (-10 opinion of vassals, -1 diplomacy,...)

Good question.

I'm fine in principle with the assassination button being removed as it is just too darn easy a way of dealing with things, as it can be spammed and takes no time, but if it goes, NOBODY should have immunity from killing plots save the character himself, on the grounds that assisted suicide to advance a better ruler just wasn't in the cards at the time.

Killing people - even killing people you had some affection for - to advance your own political agenda, on the other hand, definitely was.

It is not as if the current implementation of the killing plot isn't silly; It is certainly silly enough: "I've got a plot to kill X. The plot doesn't actually have a plan as such, beyond crowdfunding the murder, hoping for the conspirators to seize any opportunity that bids itself, either this year or the next, definitely within a decade if we get enough to join up, because planning for success is obviously a bad idea when you can rely on random people acting on their own inititative....", leading to the formation of a kill-the-dummy club, where the motto is "the more the merrier", and people spend more time on group hugs than advancing the agenda.... But the mechanics make some sort of sense when plotting to kill people outside your own immediate court, if you wanted to make it look like an accident, rather than the case of being okay with the victim dead in a deniable murder or being okay with taking the reputation hit for discovery.

Let's face it; Currently assassination plots reads like something out of a joke book. The auto-invite to join a plot for anybody being even remotely interested in joining up actually being the rational player choice to tick in most cases indicates the vast failure of the plotting mechanic as representing anything that makes sense.

If it turns out that with the new improved assassinations either a) your heirs or anybody else is immune to killing plots, or b) that it requires everybody and his donkey to rally together to kill even a defenceless infant in your own castle, and this requires vast amounts of time to happen, there'll be hell to pay.