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Ya but all Christian Emperor's claimed that. It was apart of their inheritance of Pronficus Maxinmus as apart of their imperial titles. It was like that from the first Constantine.
The Roman emperors ceded the title of Pontifex Maximus to the Pope a long time ago. I think there's a difference between what Constantine V and past emperors. Like others said, he wants to have be seen as having the same position as the pope.The most a Christian king and emperor can proclaim was that he's God's viceroy on earth.He doesn't really have the same spiritual authority as someone like the pope.
 
Even though I find real Iconoclasm to be ridiculous and not a real issue (Being Catholic, we like our Icons), it would be interesting to see a Byzantine Empire that is completely Iconoclast. So, I am planning on doing an Iconoclast Byzantine Playthrough. Iconoclasm shall rule the Middle East!
 
Even though I find real Iconoclasm to be ridiculous and not a real issue (Being Catholic, we like our Icons), it would be interesting to see a Byzantine Empire that is completely Iconoclast. So, I am planning on doing an Iconoclast Byzantine Playthrough. Iconoclasm shall rule the Middle East!

I'd rather wait in hope that they actually make Iconoclasm interesting and not just a title ^^; (onyl Catharism and, to a lesser extent, Fraticelli have interesting stuff amongst heresies)
 
The Roman emperors ceded the title of Pontifex Maximus to the Pope a long time ago. I think there's a difference between what Constantine V and past emperors. Like others said, he wants to have be seen as having the same position as the pope.The most a Christian king and emperor can proclaim was that he's God's viceroy on earth.He doesn't really have the same spiritual authority as someone like the pope.

They never ceded it (not willingly anyways) they took it with their lies just like how they fabricated Constatine granting them territory in Italy. Justinian never ceded the Emperor being inferior to the Pope in such matters specially not when he put in place his own pope when he conquered italy and wished a return of the pope being equal to the other patriarchs. The tradition of the soveriegn exercising Authority over the church extended also to the Russian Orthodox Church later on.

But were essentially debating the history of Caesaropapism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesaropapism
 
They never ceded it (not willingly anyways) they took it with their lies just like how they fabricated Constatine granting them territory in Italy. Justinian never ceded the Emperor being inferior to the Pope in such matters specially not when he put in place his own pope when he conquered italy and wished a return of the pope being equal to the other patriarchs. The tradition of the soveriegn exercising Authority over the church extended also to the Russian Orthodox Church later on.
The emperors effectively ceded it to the pope when Gratian relinquished the title.

At any rate, the emperors lacked the spiritual authority of the pope.The emperor's authority over the Orthodox Church is simply overrated. They couldn't even get a fourth marriage without getting into significant trouble from the Church. Nor could they even force the Orthodox Church to reconcile with the Catholic Church in the later days when they begged the West for help. Quite often, they were even deposed with the support of the Orthodox Church.
 
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Yes and Hadrian ceded Mesopotamia to the fricken Persians didnt stop later emperors trying to reclaim it.. Gratian is one of the few Emperors who didnt try to mess with the Christian Church.

But ya talking to you has made me want to invade the Papal States again and execute the pope.... lol
 
They never ceded it (not willingly anyways) they took it with their lies just like how they fabricated Constatine granting them territory in Italy. Justinian never ceded the Emperor being inferior to the Pope in such matters specially not when he put in place his own pope when he conquered italy and wished a return of the pope being equal to the other patriarchs. The tradition of the soveriegn exercising Authority over the church extended also to the Russian Orthodox Church later on.

But were essentially debating the history of Caesaropapism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesaropapism

Emperor Gratian pointedly renounced the title and the first Pope to assume the title was Pope Leo the Great though the title didn't get much use until the 1500s. Regardless of wither nor not the Popes were submissive to emperors they were the head of the church by both the great church councils and by imperial law just as by imperial law they were the rector of the whole church which gave them at least more some authority than other Patriarchs regardless even if they didn't have Supremacy as western Christians believed.
 
Emperor Gratian pointedly renounced the title and the first Pope to assume the title was Pope Leo the Great though the title didn't get much use until the 1500s. Regardless of wither nor not the Popes were submissive to emperors they were the head of the church by both the great church councils and by imperial law just as by imperial law they were the rector of the whole church which gave them at least more some authority than other Patriarchs regardless even if they didn't have Supremacy as western Christians believed.

having authority over the other patriarchates is the very definition of supremacy.
 
I'd say the difference is that being rector of the church which gave some authority over the whole church beyond the place of honor of being the head of the church was something established legally by imperial law and not established theologically as Papal Supremacy is.
 
Not true! Not even the slightest. Do not assume even for a moment that the people at the top cared petty little details in scripture.

Iconoclasm was a political stance, not a heresy. Leo III claimed he was just trying to properly worship god. Only certain groups of miaphisites and paulicians in eastern anatolia sincerely believed that depicting Jesus was heretical. The rest of the anatolians just wanted to empty the numerous churches of gold so as not to lure annual arab raids.

Leo and Constantine knew what a devastating effect christianity had on imperial authority; At its heart lie intolerance and exclusiveness. Monophysite conflicts almost tore the empire apart, and contemporary rivalry between the pope and patriarch caused further instability. Particularly at the time when the Exarchate of Ravenna was under dire threat from the lombards.

The Ecumenical Patriarch was actually very power by the time of Leo III, all those numerous persian and muslim raids left the anatolians living in absolute misery, barely able to bear the brunt of taxes. They turned to religion for hope, donating what little money the could in the process. Many even abandoned the farms giving them to the church. During the "20 year anarchy" predating Leo III, patriarchs vied for installing puppet rulers so several emperors had to give the pope primacy over all Christendom in return for his political support. But this caused the Pope to meddle in internal ERE politics instilling further revolutions.

Leo III hesitated to directly counter orthodoxy so he focused mainly on secular reform - roman law was modified to suit the current needs of state defense (vicious corporal punishment introduced for presumed traitors for example).

Constantine V truly set out to break the church. He proclaimed himself the first priest and claimed divinity (in greek the word meant something slightly different but translates to divinity in english). People were to worship god through him and him only, not Jesus or saints. Hence, all depictions of Jesus were to be destroyed or replaced with images of the emperor. Churches were stripped of all wealth so it can be used to fund wars. Monks and Nuns forced become secular citizens by abandoning their vows and marrying each other on the spot. Those who refused were blinded and exiled to Sicily. Monasteries converted into barracks, hospitals, and other civil buildings. Many, many influential citizens, including almost all seniour officers were hanged, their property confiscated for supporting orthodoxy. It was like a Stalinist purge really.
The pope lost all his power in the east, taxes payed by churches in dalmatia and southern Italy were diverted from Rome to Constantinople despite his protests.

Once he pacified his political enemies, Constantine was free to bring war to Bulgaria and the muslims, winning many battle against both. The decline of the ERE was finally reversed. If you read the early history of the ERE, you will that it was much stronger after his reign. Everything was set for the Macedonian renaissance.

All of what I wrote above were his actions. Constantine never openly declared a war on the church. That's a sure way to get assassinated in the middle ages. He rebranded eastern sects into 'iconoclasm' to justify changing the status quo. As expected, he found many followers in central-eastern anatolia, people there were already poor and fed up with the church corruption. In the european and western atanolian parts, there was almost no support for his theology. But he had enough influence to sack all government official who opposed him. Except in Italy which was too remote to enforce anything. The loss of Rome was the price he had to pay.

So for all you who call Iconoclasm a 'cancer' or an ' islamic inspired heresy', you are really underestimating byzantine diplomacy. Imperial advisers had great experience from reviewing centuries of part Roman political history. The people at the top knew how to sway the masses and rule over them.
If you don't believe me, analyze every acting of Constantine V yourself. See how he directly benefits from enforcing his 'biblical interpretation'. A bit too convenient if it were all just a coincidence.

As for the orthodox church, it took her slightly longer than 200 years to recover. Only after 1030 AD do we see the Patriarch stirring trouble again. He wanted to oust the emperor and proclaim a theocracy.

Would be awesome if the player (and the AI) could decide to make this kind of things and have interaction with these kind of events.
 
I'd rather wait in hope that they actually make Iconoclasm interesting and not just a title ^^; (onyl Catharism and, to a lesser extent, Fraticelli have interesting stuff amongst heresies)

I'd love to see some mechanics for Bogomilst eventually. Would make an enjoyable bosnian playthrough.

The emperors effectively ceded it to the pope when Gratian relinquished the title.

At any rate, the emperors lacked the spiritual authority of the pope.The emperor's authority over the Orthodox Church is simply overrated. They couldn't even get a fourth marriage without getting into significant trouble from the Church. Nor could they even force the Orthodox Church to reconcile with the Catholic Church in the later days when they begged the West for help. Quite often, they were even deposed with the support of the Orthodox Church.

This guy is the best example of what you said. A would be Emperor forced to become a monk, then became Patriarch and tried to create a theocracy. His actions brought the east-west relations to an all time low, worse than even Constantine V.

Would be awesome if the player (and the AI) could decide to make this kind of things and have interaction with these kind of events.

A Charlemagne style chronicle / event chain for be perfect for that.