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Dalwin

Dalwin

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Aug 11, 2003
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I think the division builder, with bn size building blocks, is a very welcome change with very little dissent expressed in the forums. I have one big question, however.

Once we put together our division, will all the bns simply add stats to some grand total, i.e. will the division just end up with an overall soft attack strength and hard attack strength from summing up its parts? What I would rather see is combat mechanics that let the individual bns play a direct role in combat. I think the notion of tracking individual vehicles supports this.

I know that combat execution will all be behind the scenes. This is not a tactical game. However, how the combat mechanics are implemented has a big impact.

If individual subunits directly participate in combat, variations in division structure will have more meaning, IMO. If not, then min/maxing will once again prevail.
 
^^Agree with this.
 
Top idea, and agree. I think there's some hope from the way Paradox have been moving with their combat modelling for this to happen. It'd definitely add to immersion if you're juggling divisions where, instead of every brigade/regiment in the division being at 30% strength, one regiment had been chewed up and was barely functional, while others were in better shape. Could lead to more interesting strategic decisions as to what to do with each division at a given time.
 
I would love to see individual information for each unit. I know irl the traditional panzer division had 250 tanks (In North Africa at least).
It would be nice having this information in the game but might be difficult to code.
 
I agree with this. I'm imagining something broadly similar behind the scenes to EU4 combat with all the battalions of the attackers and defenders positioning themselves, supporting each other and etc. Anti-tank battalion tries to shoot at tanks and so on. Maybe this is too in-depth, but something similar but less in-depth would also be great.
 
My concern is that if there is not some behind the scenes interaction at bn level, if it is just grand totals at division level, that would mean that most of the detail gained in the division builder would be a mirage. It would be mostly flavor just like vehicle model names.
 
Dalwin said:
My concern is that if there is not some behind the scenes interaction at bn level, if it is just grand totals at division level, that would mean that most of the detail gained in the division builder would be a mirage. It would be mostly flavor just like vehicle model names.
Click to expand...

That is true. It would be a significant improvement over older HOI titles given the flexibility and realistic structuring of your divisions, but still missing its true potential.

Since we have these brigades and battalions it would be a shame if they were only for organization, visualization, and statistics modifying. But, perhaps rewriting the whole battle system is considered too much by Paradox. We will have to wait and see I suppose.
 
Especially considering they have recon elements in the divisions, battles should really be centered on brigades and battalions. Say, a recon element discovers an enemy battalion, then an arty brigade unloads on it, getting full surprise before an armor battalion moves in to mop it up. Would love having such situations simulated while still out of our direct control.
 
Wyrm said:
Especially considering they have recon elements in the divisions, battles should really be centered on brigades and battalions. Say, a recon element discovers an enemy battalion, then an arty brigade unloads on it, getting full surprise before an armor battalion moves in to mop it up. Would love having such situations simulated while still out of our direct control.
Click to expand...

Oh yes. It would be absolutely lovely to be able to see a battalion level war-game play out, with sides employing their assets differently depending on doctrine. I guess even in large battles divisions would duke it out in fairly small isolated groups, so an informative view of what those battalions do would presumably not be impossible. Hardly a necessary feature, but really cool nonetheless.
 
I think this is going to happen because they had said that equipment losses will be modeled... so if your attack costs you more tanks than infantry for instance, your armored battalion would be a a much lower strength than your motorized infantry battalion.
 
Just to add something to this... The easiest way I see of doing this without much change to what they have now:

Take the division designer, and make the order the units are in matter. There are 5 battalions, if you take an Infantry division and you put Tank Destroyers or Tanks in the center battalion the breakthrough chance for the division would increase.

If you put armoured cars/ calvary/ motorcycles on the very left or very right battalions then recon% goes up and encirclement chances go down.

Basically make it so that Battalion order matters, and possibly even make it so that the order that brigades in the battalion matter. That would be a really cool idea.
 
Dalwin said:
I think the division builder, with bn size building blocks, is a very welcome change with very little dissent expressed in the forums. I have one big question, however.

Once we put together our division, will all the bns simply add stats to some grand total, i.e. will the division just end up with an overall soft attack strength and hard attack strength from summing up its parts? What I would rather see is combat mechanics that let the individual bns play a direct role in combat. I think the notion of tracking individual vehicles supports this.

I know that combat execution will all be behind the scenes. This is not a tactical game. However, how the combat mechanics are implemented has a big impact.

If individual subunits directly participate in combat, variations in division structure will have more meaning, IMO. If not, then min/maxing will once again prevail.
Click to expand...

We don't know yet, but I think it will be a sum of all parts as it was in HoI3. Thus total of soft attack, hard attack, toughness and defensiveness.
There is a big possibility that the division builder is a flavour thing and that the end result stat wise per division is the same as a HoI3 division. I hope to be wrong, but there seem to be less statistics than there were in Hoi3.
 
Dalwin said:
I think the division builder, with bn size building blocks, is a very welcome change with very little dissent expressed in the forums. I have one big question, however.

Once we put together our division, will all the bns simply add stats to some grand total, i.e. will the division just end up with an overall soft attack strength and hard attack strength from summing up its parts? What I would rather see is combat mechanics that let the individual bns play a direct role in combat. I think the notion of tracking individual vehicles supports this.

I know that combat execution will all be behind the scenes. This is not a tactical game. However, how the combat mechanics are implemented has a big impact.

If individual subunits directly participate in combat, variations in division structure will have more meaning, IMO. If not, then min/maxing will once again prevail.
Click to expand...

I asked a similar question for the last QA and Podcat answered.
- He said that stat-wise a div with 6 frontline battalions will have the same stats no matter how those battalions are organized in regiments
- He also said that doctrines will play a role when it comes to how big a regiment can be

The first point is fair. The second one... not sure

The thing is, it's actually a valid question military wise.

In real-life, just what is the difference between having battalions organized into larger fewer Regiments/Brigades or smaller more Regiments/Brigades. What the difference, operationally, between those two division organization in real-life?

As far as HOI4 goes, it seems that divs will be the sum of their parts.
 
Radu said:
I asked a similar question for the last QA and Podcat answered.
- He said that stat-wise a div with 6 frontline battalions will have the same stats no matter how those battalions are organized in regiments
- He also said that doctrines will play a role when it comes to how big a regiment can be

The first point is fair. The second one... not sure

The thing is, it's actually a valid question military wise.

In real-life, just what is the difference between having battalions organized into larger fewer Regiments/Brigades or smaller more Regiments/Brigades. What the difference, operationally, between those two division organization in real-life?

As far as HOI4 goes, it seems that divs will be the sum of their parts.
Click to expand...

To me, that first point merely says it doesn't matter in what order you have them arranged on the division template. It may or may not imply that this means a division will fight as one integrated entity, the stats of which are merely a sum of its parts. They could have a more involved combat engine. Then again there may only be some algorithm that parses out the damage taken so that we can track vehicle losses etc.
 
Dalwin said:
To me, that first point merely says it doesn't matter in what order you have them arranged on the division template. It may or may not imply that this means a division will fight as one integrated entity, the stats of which are merely a sum of its parts. They could have a more involved combat engine. Then again there may only be some algorithm that parses out the damage taken so that we can track vehicle losses etc.
Click to expand...

I don't think that land combat stat wise will be very different than in HoI3. There are so many new things in HoI4, that it would suprise me if the way land combat works is changed drastically in comparison with HoI3.

Edit: I also seem to remember a post from Podcat that he thought land combat worked fine in HoI3 TfH. I am not 100% certain if I remember it correctly.. anyway land combat worked fine certainly in comparison with naval combat.
 
Thaegen said:
I don't think that land combat stat wise will be very different than in HoI3. There are so many new things in HoI4, that it would suprise me if the way land combat works is changed drastically in comparison with HoI3.

Edit: I also seem to remember a post from Podcat that he thought land combat worked fine in HoI3 TfH. I am not 100% certain if I remember it correctly.. anyway land combat worked fine certainly in comparison with naval combat.
Click to expand...

But HOI3 also did not track individual vehicles or have battalion size building blocks. You may well be right that combat will not really change much, however if that is so, then much of the added detail in HOI4 ends up being smoke without substance. I am not saying this would ruin the game by any means, but I think it would be a lost opportunity.
 
Dalwin said:
But HOI3 also did not track individual vehicles or have battalion size building blocks. You may well be right that combat will not really change much, however if that is so, then much of the added detail in HOI4 ends up being smoke without substance. I am not saying this would ruin the game by any means, but I think it would be a lost opportunity.
Click to expand...

Well in that case the added detail is exactly the amount of substance as was actually described. Never did anyone actually say land combat was different as far as I know. Having more control over division composition is exactly what is says on the tin. No smoke really.
 
Dalwin said:
But HOI3 also did not track individual vehicles or have battalion size building blocks. You may well be right that combat will not really change much, however if that is so, then much of the added detail in HOI4 ends up being smoke without substance. I am not saying this would ruin the game by any means, but I think it would be a lost opportunity.
Click to expand...

We don't know how detailed the tracked vehicle thing is. It is possible that it is just a glorified variant of the HoI3 strength column. I hope that this isn't the case.

I think that lots of questions will only be answered when the game is released.
 
Thaegen said:
We don't know how detailed the tracked vehicle thing is. It is possible that it is just a glorified variant of the HoI3 strength column. I hope that this isn't the case.

I think that lots of questions will only be answered when the game is released.
Click to expand...

You are quite likely correct. Perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part, considering the air combat will break down to 1v1 or 2v1 dogfights, that there might be a bit more granularity to the land combat as well this time around.
 
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