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City: Skylines... Really?!!!

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Bumpy Johnson

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Oct 29, 2012
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  • Cities in Motion 2
C'mon CO, where is the great game that I know you have in you?

I've held off on critiquing CIM2 until I've had enough time to digest this iteration of the game. Been playing since the beginning and I've tried every game in this genre since 1992. I loved things about CIM1 and I thought this version would push the genre along further. Although I like certain things about this game, I found too many changes from the original that made it frustrating. I won't go over most of them because they have been spoken about ad nauseum by me and plenty of other fans. I just have a hard time understanding why not take the first game and add the good features from CIM2 and create a really great experience? Then take those features and push the envelope a bit more to develop C:S into the ultimate game for this genre. Instead what I'm hearing is that CIM2 was our transportation sim and now we want to create a city-builder sim.

It seems you already have a city-builder game - a few nips and tucks and voila! Why cater to a small niche when you can expand the base of the genre by incorporating more elements to allow fans to determine how they want to play the game. Somebody in the ivory tower is probably going to say "let's keep it simple and not do too much" but this genre really needs new blood, fresh ideas and someone willing to break out of the box and push for more. I would normally be happy to hear about a new city-builder type game but everyone that enters the arena keeps trying to rehash Sim City in some form and that's not necessary. CIM1/CIM2 (I have to mash them for an idea of the ultimate game) are actually beyond that. Why regress? Re-introduce those features from CIM1 that everyone has been clamoring for, upgrade the transportation model and add an economic model, expand the content palette with a huge influx of buildings, flora, products, etc, streamline the code to be more efficient, figure out how to integrate user created content and C:S might become something special then. Just doing what's been done will only leave you (and us) boxed in with the same old thing.

Please, tear those walls down!!!
 
Cities Skylines is basically an updated version of SC4 that many of us loved so much.

It has modern 3D graphics without a rigid grid. But I fear that it incorporates may of that games original limitations, particularly in the transport department. The transport systems are exactly the same as the original plain vanilla SC4. (Before the 'Rush Hour' upgrade and all the later fan made NAM mods.) On the plus side it has commuter railways that can bring in commuters from out of town (as do the roads), a feature that would be a great addition for CIM2! Apart from that there's only metros (that are strictly underground only), buses and cars. It also has the option of LH drive.
 
My problem is that by trying to emulate the SC4 model, CO is bound by those same limitations. Add those to the limitations to their game that they have implemented as well and we are forever left wanting. We are 11 years removed from SC4's heyday and folks are still enamored with that game. Why? Because no one will look beyond what is already there and try to knock down the walls. You can only advance by pushing the edge. Not sticking with the status quo. I'm hoping CO pushes a little bit harder. I'll be glad to kick out the dollars if they do. Otherwise I'll just keep hoping and writing these wistful replies.
 
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In that case why not come and join in the discussion over in the Cities: Skylines subforum? With the game still in alpha (release is expected sometime in Spring 2015 IIRC) I'm sure CO are always on the lookout for new ideas and feedback to make the best game they can! If you've got particular views on the limitations of SC4 and ideas about how they could be overcome/avoided in CSL then why not tell the devs? :)
 
I don't really write on these forums as much as I used to. Back in the day I really enjoyed being a part of these communities but nowadays not so much because my detachment relieves the frustration. I just may join the Skylines sub forum because I always have hope but I doubt I can contribute anymore than others already have.

I understand that CO has to adhere to the bottom line and create revenue streams to keep the company viable but like companies before them, these sometimes myopic views seem to begat missed opportunities. I think it's cool that CO has representatives on here interacting with fans but I don't see much of anything that has been discussed instigating beneficial changes. A lot of appeasement but nothing substantial. What were issues 5 -10 years ago, are still issues today. Not blaming CO for that but they are at the forefront and leading the charge in this genre. So at some point this stagnation has to be addressed to allow the game to move forward.

I don't do MMORPGs, FPS or other sim type games. This is my genre. So where is my HALO, Descent, GTA level game? Where is the evolution that should have happened already? If Cities: Skyline is moving in that direction, I'm onboard. Otherwise, ho hum.
 
Person012345 said:
No, it has many differences from SC4 and I would definitely not lavbel it as an "updated simcity 4". It looks more like what Simcity 2013 was supposed to be so far.
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SimCity 2013 WAS supposed to be an undated version of SC4, that's what the fans wanted! Unfortunately it wasn't, that's why most of us hated it!
 
Cities : Skylines will cater for a much larger audience, then us transport fanatics. I fear that the success of CS due to its genre will drive the developers away from the CiM franchise in future.

Some of the key points I find will break CS for me are;

1. No tunnels
2. Maps are 1/3 the size of Cim2
3. Road system flaws (aka controlling # turning lanes, adjusting light timings) will not be attended to
4. Traffic system appears to have same faults such as traffic queueing in a single lane when multiple available
5. More micromanagement of taxes, budget allocations (like fares in Cim2), Less control over public transit elements (aka, place bus stops, lay train tracks, that's it)
6. Modding support is being over hyped; I think modders will be dissappointed that "Full mod support" will offer a limited scope of modding capabilities (ie. No scripting, modding only exposed through game tools to import models, textures, tweak numbers).

So what's left for CS imo is a much smaller map editor with a still broken car traffic system, where I get to zone land, place schools, police stations and parks, and loose my transport planning capabilities, all while micromanaging numbers.

Looks like it may be another 6 years until another developer picks up the transport genre and improves upon it. Train Fever has too a simplitistic model, a industry giant style model would of been much better.

PS. This isn't a dig at CO, this is just my opinion of the future of CO and the CIM franchise. I wish the developers would consider open sourcing the game so those of us with Unity expertise could improve it with the things we want. CO_Martsu, could this be done under some kind of license, it would allow us to continue to improve upon the game which could capture more sales in future for CIM2?
 
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You seem to have a lot of opinions about a game that you only saw 2 videos and some screenshots.
Wouldn't be better to wait and see? Its too many specific claims for someone who never play the game, and a game in alpha yet.
 
The problem is we always seem to be waiting to see. We spend at least 95% of our time on these forums (all previous games included) getting revved up by the hype and buzz and waiting to see. We speculate... we wish... and then we are ultimately left scratching our heads wondering "is this it?" I challenge you to go back in your memory and come up with a released product in this genre that measured up to the preceding hype. Heck SC4 had to scramble and release Rush Hour right on the heels of the initial release to earn its lofty status.

I know I seem to have a lot of whine going on but I just believe there is a great game in this franchise. CO can't see the pitch coming out of the pitcher's hand and keep's fouling it off. All they have to do is keep it in play and hit that home run.

Don't take features out of CIM2 in order to create your "city-builder". You did that with CIM1 - CIM2 and it lessened the final product. Keep what you have and add to it. You're more than halfway home. Tweak it a bit, add some flourishes and you might have something special.
 
douglasrac said:
You seem to have a lot of opinions about a game that you only saw 2 videos and some screenshots.
Wouldn't be better to wait and see? Its too many specific claims for someone who never play the game, and a game in alpha yet.
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My 6 dot points are factual based on answers given by CO within these forums and the reddit ama. Outside of that is my opinion based on those 6 points. Yes it was a whine, but it comes from hours of reading these forums and sharing what I feel may be the games biggest flaws I hope can only serve a purpose to have them attended to if others raise them as an issue as well. In future, I hope eis_os and others can continue expanding the game through the patching of the game and thats were I'll now place my attention from now on on these forums.

I'm confident with my 6 points that one week after this game is released, I'm willing to bet these 6 points will be the core game complaints, and I'll even PM you on these forums and apologize profusely for being someone with a false sense of direction of where the developers are making mistakes should I be wrong.
 
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timfrombriz said:
Cities : Skylines will cater for a much larger audience, then us transport fanatics. I fear that the success of CS due to its genre will drive the developers away from the CiM franchise in future.
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I fear this as well. Even if CO decides to stay on CiM, Paradox will certainly spend no time pushing CO to do more Skylines DLCs and sequels if it turns out to be a bigger money maker than CiM.
 
timfrombriz said:
I wish the developers would consider open sourcing the game so those of us with Unity expertise could improve it with the things we want. CO_Martsu, could this be done under some kind of license, it would allow us to continue to improve upon the game which could capture more sales in future for CIM2?
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There are so many legal obstacles to open sourcing Cities in Motion that it's not something we can consider at this time.

Cities : Skylines will cater for a much larger audience, then us transport fanatics. I fear that the success of CS due to its genre will drive the developers away from the CiM franchise in future.
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Cities: Skylines is a different game than Cities in Motion for sure. However if we're successful with it, maybe it opens doors to continue developing Cities in Motion games as well. We can't do it all at once and even if we have the will we are sadly missing the means at this time.
 
co_martsu said:
Cities: Skylines is a different game than Cities in Motion for sure. However if we're successful with it, maybe it opens doors to continue developing Cities in Motion games as well. We can't do it all at once and even if we have the will we are sadly missing the means at this time.
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As long as you guys continue to treat Skylines and CIM1/2 as different games, the fan base and revenue pool will be limited. City building and transit managing go hand in hand along with economic development. Very few of your fans want one without the others. That keeps the playability high. Technology is not as much of a hindrance as it used to be. Ideology seems to be the boulder in the road.
 
co_martsu said:
There are so many legal obstacles to open sourcing Cities in Motion that it's not something we can consider at this time.
Cities: Skylines is a different game than Cities in Motion for sure. However if we're successful with it, maybe it opens doors to continue developing Cities in Motion games as well. We can't do it all at once and even if we have the will we are sadly missing the means at this time.
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Are we talking about CIM1 or CIM2?. CIM1, as there are many tools and mods would be better target as open source, we won't need the assets, only the core game engine. Even we would trying our best so all DLCs work as before or even better!
Either win32 or the unix(macos) port, we can back port to windows.


It looks like there won't be any updates any more for CIM2, if it's true it would be nice to have an offical statement.
 
These are my thoughts exactly, but not everyone agreed on the Cities: Skylines thread (I made a post similar to this which got a lot of backlash). Here. Why do we need another rehash of SC4 when clearly we like SC4 because it was good?!
 
Nevile210 said:
Why do we need another rehash of SC4 when clearly we like SC4 because it was good?!
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Why do we need another OS when clearly everyone loved XP? Why do we need dozens of new models of cars every year when Ford's Model T worked perfectly fine? Just because something is similar to, or inspired by, something doesn't mean it's a rehash or there is no value in it.

SimCity 4 was released way back in 2003 and a lot has changed in the 10 years since, non more so than in the world of computers and gaming. Although there have been (I think) three mainstream attempts since to breathe new life into the genre (SimCity Societies, Cities XL, SimCity 2013?) I don't think any have quite hit the mark, which partly explains SC4's enduring popularity. Now CO have decided that they want to have a go and we should be encouraging them to take their idea as far as possible in order to make another great game that we can sit and enjoy for the next decade!
 
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