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Vassal limit MUST COME with free duchy and kingdom revocation at max Crown Authority.

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darthfanta

darthfanta

Basileus Basileōn
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Apr 22, 2012
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^Enough said. It's long overdue that paradox needs to fix Crown Authority. There's no benefit at all to raise crown authority beyond medium. Besides that, vassal limit without free kingdom revocation for historically centralized realms like the Muslim ones or the ERE is ridiculous because that will take away their ability to maintain themselves as centralized realms if they are forced to create kingdoms that are fully hereditary and non-revocable if they get large enough. Even in the super decentralized HRE, we have fully hereditary kings only when the emperor decentralised the empire beyond repair. Before then, the title of King for the rulers of Bohemia was non-hereditary.If you are worried about the potential overpowered nature of doing so, then you may as well make it so that at max crown authority, anyone can start a faction to make his or herself the ruler regardless of the fact he/she has a claim on the throne and no matter what the actual succession law is.Make everyone who rejects raising crown authority band together and FIGHT as a faction if the law passed regardless.Please also make sure that duchies do not have de jure drift to any vassal kingdom when under an empire.
 
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It would be nice to be able to change vassal succession and gender laws. and ultimately, of course, to change it to "liege appontment" law.
 
darthfanta said:
And why musn't?Paradox itself maintains that max ca is absolute monarchy.
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I may be having a bit trouble articulating myself given the hour. But I mean mustn't in a sense where it is not a required thing. OP states it must happen, that is just outright not the case. Could it happen? Yes, Should It Happen? I don't think so. Must it happen? Certainly not. There is no reason it is a MUST to happen. It is clearly capable of happening in the game mechanics.
 
Jaywebbs said:
I may be having a bit trouble articulating myself given the hour. But I mean mustn't in a sense where it is not a required thing. OP states it must happen, that is just outright not the case. Could it happen? Yes, Should It Happen? I don't think so. Must it happen? Certainly not. There is no reason it is a MUST to happen. It is clearly capable of happening in the game mechanics.
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I am the OP.I said IT MUST HAPPEN because it will otherwise break Muslim realms and the ERE into a full feudal state. It's ridiculous. It's also ludicrous that a supposed absolute monarchy is constituted of feudal vassals that's fully hereditary. That's NOT an absolute monarchy, nor are vassals choking under the rule of lowly bureaucrats.
 
darthfanta said:
I am the OP.I said IT MUST HAPPEN because it will otherwise break Muslim realms and the ERE into a full feudal state. It's ridiculous. It's also ludicrous that a supposed absolute monarchy is constituted of feudal vassals that's fully hereditary. That's NOT an absolute monarchy, nor are vassals choking under the rule of lowly bureaucrats.
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Don't be ludicrous. Under an absolute monarchy fully hereditary feudal vassals are even more the case! The hereditary feudal system is the entire justification for the monarchy and hereditary law is ironclad.

The ERE has free revocation not because its an absolute monarchy but for the complete polar opposite reason, it was not hereditary rule. Even the Emperor was not selected by hereditary rule and neither were lower titles which is represented in game by the free revocations.

Name even a single absolute monarchy that did not have hereditary rule.
 
Ayn Mandarb said:
Don't be ludicrous. Under an absolute monarchy fully hereditary feudal vassals are even more the case! The hereditary feudal system is the entire justification for the monarchy and hereditary law is ironclad.

The ERE has free revocation not because its an absolute monarchy but for the complete polar opposite reason, it was not hereditary rule.
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You are misunderstanding what absolute monarchy means. Absolute monarchy is a system where the king/emperor has full powers to do ANYTHING,including executing ANYONE,dukes, counts, whatever without trial.The monarchies that became absolute all became so by eliminating the power of feudal nobles,took away their power to raise armies and implemented governors to rule. Many of the nobles became impoverished and were basically just beggars with a fancy title.
Thure said:
Maybe it should be depend on High Centralisation and not on Crown Authority.
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I'm fine with either, as long as they do something with free duchy and kingdom revocation for everyone.
 
darthfanta said:
You are misunderstanding what absolute monarchy means. Absolute monarchy is a system where the king/emperor has full powers to do ANYTHING,including executing ANYONE,dukes, counts, whatever without trial.The monarchies that became absolute all became so by eliminating the power of feudal nobles,took away their power to raise armies and implemented governors to rule. Many of the nobles became impoverished and were basically just beggars with a fancy title.
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No you are the one who is incorrect. Anything in the medieval close to absolute monarch still had fully hereditary nobility, it is just that the nobility were significantly weaker than the monarch. This is already implemented in-game.

The hereditary principle was not diminished though.
 
Ayn Mandarb said:
No you are the one who is incorrect. Anything in the medieval close to absolute monarch still had fully hereditary nobility, it is just that the nobility were significantly weaker than the monarch. This is already implemented in-game.

The hereditary principle was not diminished though.
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There's no absolute monarchs in medieval Europe. The closest one is the ERE,who has no nobility who inherits command of armies and governorships via birth alone. They were all appointed and had a term limit.Nobility's still hereditary under absolute monarchy. Difference is that they can't raise armies nor do they have any judicial or administrative control over anyone unless they are appointed an official by the king. All they have are estates where they derive income through rent and dues, and in many cases, all they have is their hereditary titles. They are just beggars with a fancy title that happens to be hereditary.
 
darthfanta said:
There's no absolute monarchs in medieval Europe. The closest one is the ERE,who has no nobility who inherits command of armies and governorships via birth alone. They were all appointed and had a term limit.
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The ERE was nothing like an absolute monarchy. It wasn't even a hereditary monarchy.

The very point of an absolute monarch is that their right and power was derived from God. The hereditary principle was key to that and the nobility were hereditary from God too as a result, differentiated from those God had set to being serfs. The monarch would ensure the nobility was weak and he was strong, but to suggest the nobility was anything other than hereditary is a gross misunderstanding. A "beggar with a title" still has the title.
 
Ayn Mandarb said:
The ERE was nothing like an absolute monarchy. It wasn't even a hereditary monarchy.

The very point of an absolute monarch is that their right and power was derived from God. The hereditary principle was key to that and the nobility were hereditary from God too as a result, differentiated from those God had set to being serfs. The monarch would ensure the nobility was weak and he was strong, but to suggest the nobility was anything other than hereditary is a gross misunderstanding. A "beggar with a title" still has the title.
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The ERE genuinely believes that the Emperor is the Viceroy of God on earth...even to it's dying days. In most instances, the position's fully hereditary. The Emperor even has more power than absolute kings of the enlightenment in that he can pick his successor.The point is that under an absolute monarchy, nobility is still hereditary, but it's just a fancy title in most cases. It doesn't automatically grant you ANY political power unless you are favoured by the king. Even then, that power isn't hereditary.
 
darthfanta said:
The ERE genuinely believes that the Emperor is the Viceroy of God on earth...even to it's dying days. In most instances, the position's fully hereditary. The Emperor even has more power than absolute kings of the enlightenment in that he can pick his successor.The point is that under an absolute monarchy, nobility is still hereditary, but it's just a fancy title in most cases. It doesn't automatically grant you ANY political power unless you are favoured by the king. Even then, that power isn't hereditary.
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The ERE was autocratic but was its own unique imperial structure, which is represented post-LoR in game. It is completely different to any other absolute monarchy as more western absolute monarchy's like France which pinned their right to rule on divine hereditary rights.

Either way though the nobility is hereditary. Crown Authority represents how weak the nobles are by giving you their levies etc
 
Ayn Mandarb said:
The ERE was autocratic but was its own unique imperial structure, which is represented post-LoR in game. It is completely different to any other absolute monarchy as more western absolute monarchy's like France which pinned their right to rule on divine hereditary rights.

Either way though the nobility is hereditary. Crown Authority represents how weak the nobles are by giving you their levies etc
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You can't use those levies when they rebel.The nobles should definitely be choking under your rule.The ERE also underpinned their rule based on divine rights,not necessarily hereditary, but on whoever the present emperor selects as his successor.Nobility is hereditary, but they are completely powerless under an absolute monarchy, they simply no longer rule any provinces like they once did in the Middle Ages. The most a noble can hope for similar is a governorship, which is non-hereditary,and has term limits. They also don't have armies. They instead serve in the regular army as officers, and the army doesn't own their loyalty to these officers, they own their loyalty to the king.In an absolute monarchy, it got to the point where sometimes a bourgeoisie has more power and influence than a noble, and where a noble can have as little money and influence as a peasant.In the ancien regime, there's a truck load of beggar nobles who begged the king for a pension because they have no estate, no income and the only thing they have is their title.The game needs to replicate how the nobility becomes governors of provinces in the ruler's name when the state of absolute monarchy is reached, not the lord of some private possession.You don't see nobles ruling fiefs when the state of absolute monarchy has been reached.
 
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darthfanta said:
You can't use those levies when they rebel.
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Entirely appropriately. Absolute monarchs were vulnerable to rebellions, so not only are rebellions possible but they should be (and are) more likely to happen.

In non-rebellion times though the nobles are incredibly weak and ineffective.
The nobles should definitely be choking under your rule.The ERE also underpinned their rule based on divine rights,not necessarily hereditary, but on whoever the present emperor selects as his successor.Nobility is hereditary, but they are completely powerless under an absolute monarchy, they simply no longer rule any provinces like they once did in the Middle Ages. The most a noble can hope for similar is a governorship, which is non-hereditary,and has term limits. They also don't have armies. They instead serve in the regular army as officers, and the army doesn't own their loyalty to these officers, they own their loyalty to the king.In an absolute monarchy, it got to the point where sometimes a bourgeoisie has more power and influence than a noble, and where a noble can have as little money and influence as a peasant.In the ancien regime, there's a truck load of beggar nobles who begged the king for a pension because they have no estate, no income and the only thing they have is their title.The game needs to replicate how the nobility becomes governors of provinces in the ruler's name when the state of absolute monarchy is reached, not the lord of some private possession.You don't see nobles ruling fiefs when the state of absolute monarchy has been reached.
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Which the game does fine. The liege gets an incredible 80% minimum levy and not vassals are so restricted they can't launch any wars at all (even against foreignors) except rebellions, so not only do they have no real levy they also can't get strong autonomously. Vassals are totally choked under Absolute Authority already.

Except when in rebellion just what are you seeing vassals under absolute authority actually doing? They have next to no troops and are banned from all types of wars.
 
Ayn Mandarb said:
Entirely appropriately. Absolute monarchs were vulnerable to rebellions, so not only are rebellions possible but they should be (and are) more likely to happen.

In non-rebellion times though the nobles are incredibly weak and ineffective.
Which the game does fine. The liege gets an incredible 80% minimum levy and not vassals are so restricted they can't launch any wars at all (even against foreignors) except rebellions, so not only do they have no real levy they also can't get strong autonomously. Vassals are totally choked under Absolute Authority already.

Except when in rebellion just what are you seeing vassals under absolute authority actually doing? They have next to no troops and are banned from all types of wars.
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Not really. They can still accumulate massive chunks of land through marriage.Even worst is that they can now use primogeniture. They can end up accumulating massive chunks of land. They can still band together because they absolutely hate your guts. This problem is prevented when people loyal are appointed by the king in absolute monarchies.They can also potentially f#$k up dejure map if they are kings.
 
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