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Thoughts on Charlemagne from the Fan Gathering

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CyaN said:
The problem I see with the ERE and vassal limit is:

-The non-feudalism of the ERE is represented mostly through free ducal revocation.
-The vassal limit will force you, in all probability, to hand out kingdoms instead of keeping things at ducal level.
-Kingdoms can't be revoked for free, so the ERE loses the one thing that reflected how they were not feudal.
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1.They could add some new mechanics too, you know. Like titles returning to liege upon the holders death.
2.They could make it so that ducal titles won't count towards vassal limit in ERE(to simulate that the entire ERE was emperors personal demesne in CK II terms).
 
BaronIronmaggot said:
1.They could add some new mechanics too, you know. Like titles returning to liege upon the holders death.
2.They could make it so that ducal titles won't count towards vassal limit in ERE(to simulate that the entire ERE was emperors personal demesne in CK II terms).
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Or just make the revocation of kingdoms free too, and problem solved. They could solve that in a number of ways, of course; we'll see if they do realize there's a problem there, and if they do something about it.
 
BaronIronmaggot said:
1.They could add some new mechanics too, you know. Like titles returning to liege upon the holders death.
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Have to be very careful with that, else it becomes impossible to play as a Byzantine vassal without getting Game Over if your character dies (due to the heir being landless). Perhaps have that only happen to duchies, and not counties?
 
I am already seeing myself handing out duchies to megadukes in such a way that they cannot form de jure kingdoms :p This will make for ugly borders but I like ugly borders. Take a look at the fiefs in France or the HRE in 1400. Pretty it ain't, but this is how medieval feudalism rolled.
 
imperium3 said:
Have to be very careful with that, else it becomes impossible to play as a Byzantine vassal without getting Game Over if your character dies (due to the heir being landless). Perhaps have that only happen to duchies, and not counties?
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Well they could make it so that counties are inheritable and duchies are not. And every time duchy holder dies, liege chooses someone from the county holders in that duchy to be the new duke.
 
I wonder how the vassal limit will be determined. Since it won't only affect the ERE, but also the HRE. Before one starts complaining about blobbing, an HRE, which consists of the in game de jure HRE, Italy, Burgundy and Pommerania isn't a blob, since that more or less were the 'historic' borders of the HRE. (It might be the limit though.)

In a similar way the Carolingian Empire (HRE/Francia) should be possible to keep together too.

Not to mention this could potentially make restoring the Roman Empire more challenging.

In general I assume the number of vassals one can have will increase with tier.
 
I know that this DLc is for the early-game but how will this represent the centralisation that happened later, notably in France where the King owned more and more land. Not sure if the vassal limit will be uned to represent that change in the more centralised realms.
 
Ruwaard said:
I wonder how the vassal limit will be determined. Since it won't only affect the ERE, but also the HRE. Before one starts complaining about blobbing, an HRE, which consists of the in game de jure HRE, Italy, Burgundy and Pommerania isn't a blob, since that more or less were the 'historic' borders of the HRE. (It might be the limit though.)

In a similar way the Carolingian Empire (HRE/Francia) should be possible to keep together too.

Not to mention this could potentially make restoring the Roman Empire more challenging.

In general I assume the number of vassals one can have will increase with tier.
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That "historical" empire was nothing but a bunch of dukes that only respected the emperor when they felt like it. In game, it is a massive blob able to raise doomstacks after doomstacks and that never, ever, loses a single province.
 
loup99 said:
I know that this DLc is for the early-game but how will this represent the centralisation that happened later, notably in France where the King owned more and more land. Not sure if the vassal limit will be uned to represent that change in the more centralised realms.
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I always assumed that the legitimacy technology represented centralisation.
 
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Reactions:
This looks very promising, thanks for the summary !
I'm interested to see Elective Gavelkind at work.
For pre-feudal wars they should use a GoT-like system where everytime a war breaks out, vassals can choose whether to join his liege in a war, stay neutral or break free, with the AI's decision being based on Opinion, distance penalty, and also state of levies (a vassal with depleted levies would refuse to join his liege's war).

We should be able to see the estimated number of troops available before starting a war and check which vassals are expected to raise their troops (perhaps a system like the Invite to plot - Green thumbs up, neutral or red thumbs down). The total levy count shown on the military tab should be approximative, making it a risky affair to go to war, you're not sure how many troops you'll have exactly.
 
It's my understanding that the "Vassal Limit" is meant to impact Empires. But we all know that nerfs come with a host of unintended consequences...

I generally like to play small kingdoms like Bohemia, or Duchies like Anjou, or Tara/Leinster from the Leinster.

Will this nerf impact me?

And how about France? Will France be swamped less or more by the HRE?
 
Cardinal Sin said:
The Byzantines had a great deal of crown authority, but it never had royal vassals. In fact, for a long time, and certainly around 769, feudalism was an utterly alien concept for them.
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Not quite. The Byzantines had a lot of client states and allies. Core Byzantine territory was centralised and not feudal. Armenia, Georgia, Crimea, Magna Graecia, the Adriatic, Serbia and Bulgaria, not so much.
 
ApolloX said:
This looks very promising, thanks for the summary !
I'm interested to see Elective Gavelkind at work.
For pre-feudal wars they should use a GoT-like system where everytime a war breaks out, vassals can choose whether to join his liege in a war, stay neutral or break free, with the AI's decision being based on Opinion, distance penalty, and also state of levies (a vassal with depleted levies would refuse to join his liege's war).
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As I have said before, it was only the family members that "broke free", not a random vassal. Thererfor only eligible tanistry candidates in the new sucession type should be able to do so.
 
pirro said:
That "historical" empire was nothing but a bunch of dukes that only respected the emperor when they felt like it. In game, it is a massive blob able to raise doomstacks after doomstacks and that never, ever, loses a single province.
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Well the HRE was still powerful in reality, even though it had to rely on the loyalty of its vassals (like any feudal realm).

I'd say the problem is that levies are replenished too quickly. A powerful realm remains powerful because levies are pretty much always at 100%. (Of course the actual amount of troops varies a bit depending on other factors but still.) If manpower was gained more slowly, a large empire would remain weakened after an important war, which would give a chance for smaller realm to win if they attack at the right time.
 
I'm really pumped up for elective gavelkind. That sounds like a good way to keep your empire interesting
 
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