Culture in the game is not just language. Some people have the mistaken believe that this is the case.
Frisian - Pre-Dutchmen Awareness
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Yes. I spoke about real language groups. Real language groups =/= ingame culture groups
Ingame Dutch, Saxon (and if they add it Frisian) should be in the Central German group. It don't make sense that they would accept an English ruler more then a German ruler.
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Language is a big part of culture though, because culture is what determines the name of characters and sometimes titles. If Frisians had very distinct names from Saxons they should have their own culture.
The big German blob should be 4 cultures at least (Saxon, Frankish, Allemanic and Bavarian) through the whole game. These big cultures in CK2 are bad enough and especially annoying, when you convert to EUIV. There even Austrian and Bavarian are separated. (Also true for other cultures as Russian and Italian)
Also French Frankish and German Frankish should be somewhat different and I'd be fine with not having Frisian as an own culture, but Dutch forming from Saxon, when the area is independant from eastern Saxon rule. But I expect PDS to drive the 100 years to 867 heavily eventbased. At least more strict than what we currently have.
I actually believe Dutch will form from Frankish culture inside k_frisia. This means Dutch will start inside the Duchies of Flanders and Brabant.
I'm fine with this, because Dutch culture (at least the language) did spread from south to north.
Or like this. Another question is will Frankish provinces in Germany and Saxon provinces become German and Frankish remain in France and Lotharingia and we just have to imagine it's synonymous with French later? Anyway there should some kind of renaming and one end or the other and maybe a more latinised Gallo-Latin culture in France.
Frankish has a new culure similiar to German. So it will be Germanic Frankish now (most likely). So Frankish in Germany will become German. Frankish in France will become French. Frankish in the Netherlands will turn Dutch.
Nah, Frankish will have to be turned into French at some point, because it will have to move from the Germanic group to the Latin group, and the names will have to be different (you don't want French kings to be called Karl or Ludwig).
I hope they use (as good as possible) Old Frankish names and not the German forms.
So Farthinanth instead of Ferdinand. Or Hildigard instead of Hildegardhttp://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Frankish/Farthinanth
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Frankish/Hildigard
Ludwig/Louis would be like Chlodowig.
Even that's debateable, since Southern Gelre, so places like Geldern, Nijmegen, Roermond etc. are in the Frankish area. Arnhem roughly is the place were Saxon and Frankish met.
Louis/Ludwig/Lodewijk could also be Chlodowech.
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Its because Saxons weren't the only influence on English. Angles and Jutes were much closer to Frisians than Saxons. England is named after the Angles rather than being called Saxony Mk2 for a reason, there were a lot more Angles than Saxons among the Anglo-Saxons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptarchy#mediaviewer/File:Anglo-Saxon_Heptarchy.jpg
Saxons are just the pink bits at the bottom, not counting the East Angles who are sort of pinkish. The Saxon settlment area is barely bigger than the areas that remained Welsh and had almost no continental settlement in the migration period.
Yah, that reflects what I recall as I recall the Angles where the largest group followed by the Saxons and the jutes who settled mainly in Kent there were some who settled in Hampshire in Wessex, and the Isle of Wight. The jutes showed more Roman, Frankish, and Christian influence in their culture and it was King Æthelberht of Kent who was also the only Jutish Bretwalda or over-king of the Heparchy, that reintroduced christanity to parts of England.
The Angles weren't closer to Frisian then to Saxon... And really... You can't exclude Low German. Many words are so similiar writen. And thewriting is the old pronouncation. Book is Book in Low German. Cheese is Keese in Low German. Clock (for time) is Klock in Low German. I never said Frisian isn't related to English. But I don't like the Anglo-Frisian theory because it's excluded Low German COMPLETELY. This is why I prefer the North Sea Germanic theory with English, Frisian and Low German as a group.
I agree with this.
As to which larger family they should be grouped with; idk. From the trailer and ss released I'd expect the larger groupings to be modified and perhaps have new mechanics associated with them. For this reason, before saying with certainty, we should see what is released with the new dlc.
The Frisians had a different lex than the Saxons.
An english version of the Lex Frisionun can be found here.
I only found a latin version of the Lex Saxonum, so I cannot really compare them and tell whether they are wildly different or pretty alike.
An english version of the Lex Frisionun can be found here.
I only found a latin version of the Lex Saxonum, so I cannot really compare them and tell whether they are wildly different or pretty alike.
The Central and Western Germanic in game split is a bit weird from a linguistic POV since, linguistically they all are Western Germanic. OTOH the Romance cultures are also split.
Still the whole culture concept also has somewhat static elements. One could argue that Anglo Saxon and Frisian were quite close, but culturally speaking Frisian moved closer to Dutch, German and Danish and further from English.
(Continental) Saxon also grew closer to High German (even though linguistic differences; Low German and High German) and gradually moved further away from their insular Anglo-Saxon cousins; by the time English emerges Saxon would be better off grouped with German and Dutch.
Again, Ruwaard, I agree with you except (perhaps) in one aspect which influences the above conclusion.
If we take a snapshot picture of the situation in 769 we could not foresee the conquest of Saxony and the subsequent growing closer to High German; indeed if they had kept their independence then Saxon culture should perhaps stay with those insular cousins.
Which is why I really want to see the details of the changes Paradox is making. My suspicions are that the details will be railroading cultural development to that of our history with the Germanic cultures mirroring the Romance cultures in the current game. Which, if we take things as they were in 769 perhaps is not the best or most elegant route to take. It really depends on what Paradox decides.
The biggest mystery is why Saxon culture was detached and made separate yet Bavarian and Allemanic remains subsumed in the generic German. It makes no logical sense to not have a separate Bavarian and Allemanic culture.