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As vassal of the Duke of Brabant, I cannot declare war on the Duke of Holland. Why?

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ZoCurious said:
Who on Earth said that I, as duke, would be vassal to a duke? Have you even read the sentence you quoted?
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You said you were the vassal of a Duke, not the Duke. The only standard way you can leave your liege is to declare independence from him first.
"He loses me as vassal either way."
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No he doesn't since you aren't permitted to declare the war. He loses you if you declare independence, virtually every other war is impermissible.
And my vassals can gain independence from me by fighting foreigners rather than me directly. The most famous example of that happening has already been mentioned - William the Conqueror.
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Wrong. Not for mere claim wars they can't.

"Must be a vassal of our liege or our liege" - the Duke is neither.
I am sorry, but this is entirely incoherent. My liege is what? I am not what? I am within the boundaries of the Empire. I am part of that big, grey blob that you cannot possibly miss when looking at Europe. So is Holland. Therefore, I am not an "outside force".
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Wrong. Your liege is within the boundaries of the Empire, you are within the boundaries of your liege. That is the way the feudal system works. Tough luck.
 
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ZoCurious said:
I understand that this is how the game works. I just don't see why it works like that. It's certainly not for reasons of historical accuracy, so I'm wondering if there is a gameplay-friendly reason behind this seemingly arbitrary rule.
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A very simply and direct one as I said, that's the way the feudal system works barring a few extreme exceptions.
Theobald IV of Champagne inherited Navarre and became independent from France
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Inheritances are worked out that way. You can inherit Holland (as liege this is shown as Risky Inheritance), but you can't declare war based on a mere claim without becoming independent first.
Charles I of Anjou invaded Sicily and became independent from France, etc, etc, etc. Winning a crusade makes you independent from your liege unless he is an emperor. I suppose this game has never been playable then :eek:
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Invasions and crusades are not mere claims. For claim wars the conditions are simple. To enforce your claim, declare independence and then fight it. Simple.

EDIT: Just tested it with console commands and I'm wrong sorry, counts can fight completely foreign Dukes.
 
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Ayn Mandarb said:
You said you were the vassal of a Duke, not the Duke.
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Ummm, what? :confused:

Ayn Mandarb said:
The only standard way you can leave your liege is to declare independence from him first.
No he doesn't since you aren't permitted to declare the war. He loses you if you declare independence, virtually every other war is impermissible.
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Nonsense. Several users have already explained to you that there are lots of "permissible" ways for a liege to lose a vassal, including inheritance, invasion, crusade and a successfully pressed claim.

Ayn Mandarb said:
Wrong. Not for mere claim wars they can't.
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Wrong? Are you telling me that William the Conqueror is part of our imagination? :laugh: Anyway, "mere claim wars" will get me independent from my liege if I claim a title outside the HRE.

Ayn Mandarb said:
Wrong. Your liege is within the boundaries of the Empire, you are within the boundaries of your liege. That is the way the feudal system works. Tough luck.
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Oh, please, let's not be absurd. Loon is part of the big grey blob as much as Holland is.

Ayn Mandarb said:
A very simply and direct one as I said, that's the way the feudal system works barring a few extreme exceptions.
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But it's not. Simply repeating that it is doesn't make it true. This very case proves that you assertion is not true. Louis was a vassal of the Duke of Brabant while he was pressing his and his wife's claim to Holland.
 
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