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As vassal of the Duke of Brabant, I cannot declare war on the Duke of Holland. Why?

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ZoCurious

Second Lieutenant
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Jun 2, 2014
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Apparently, the character I want to declare war on has to be a vassal of my liege, but why? The devs kindly paid special attention to Count Louis of Loon (Lodewijk van Loon), husband of the deposed Countess Ada of Holland, by giving him a strong claim on Holland and a weak claim to his wife. Ada inherited Holland from her father, but her uncle usurped it. Louis immediately forged alliances with six most powerful vassals of the HRE, having been blessed with four adult brothers and two adolescent sisters. I was disappointed, however, to learn that he could not declare war on his wife's uncle.

This does not make much sense to me. He could declare war on France if he had a CB, but cannot claim his wife's inheritance. What's the rationale?
 
ZoCurious said:
Apparently, the character I want to declare war on has to be a vassal of my liege, but why? The devs kindly paid special attention to Count Louis of Loon (Lodewijk van Loon), husband of the deposed Countess Ada of Holland, by giving him a strong claim on Holland and a weak claim to his wife. Ada inherited Holland from her father, but her uncle usurped it. Louis immediately forged alliances with six most powerful vassals of the HRE, having been blessed with four adult brothers and two adolescent sisters. I was disappointed, however, to learn that he could not declare war on his wife's uncle.

This does not make much sense to me. He could declare war on France if he had a CB, but cannot claim his wife's inheritance. What's the rationale?
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Perhaps the HRE has medium crown authority.
 
No, the reason given is that the Duke of Holland is not a vassal of my [direct] liege. If I were to declare independence from the Duke of Brabant, I could declare war on the Duke of Holland. But why does being vassal to a duke prevent me from declaring war on another duke?
 
ZoCurious said:
No, the reason given is that the Duke of Holland is not a vassal of my [direct] liege. If I were to declare independence from the Duke of Brabant, I could declare war on the Duke of Holland. But why does being vassal to a duke prevent me from declaring war on another duke?
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Because your claim is for a duchy so you'd be gaining a title equal to that of your liege.
 
Empress Matilda said:
Because your claim is for a duchy so you'd be gaining a title equal to that of your liege.
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Well, firstly, I could not even claim a mere county if I wanted to, since the Duke of Holland is not a vassal of my [direct] liege. Secondly, I could fabricate a claim on Flanders and claim it, even though that would make me equal to my current liege. William the Bastard, for one, became equal to his liege. I doubt that's reason Louis of Loon can't claim Holland. If it is, it's absurd.
 
Yeah, you can't declare war on someone in the same realm who is a vassal of someone other than your liege. That's just how the game works (and yes, it does get annoying as a count).
 
Rubidium said:
Yeah, you can't declare war on someone in the same realm who is a vassal of someone other than your liege. That's just how the game works (and yes, it does get annoying as a count).
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I understand that it's working as designed, but I'm wondering why it's designed to work that way. I cannot think of a sensible reason.
 
I think part of the reason you can't declare war on a vassal of another liege is that that liege has (1) sworn to protect his vassal and (2) could lose territory if you won the war. Hence it makes sense to have to declare war on that liege instead. It's the same reason you can't just attack a count of the HRE directly (unless you are a vassal of that count's liege).

Now what I don't understand is why you are not allowed to attack a vassal of the liege of your liege. If you are the vassal of a duke, and that duke is himself a vassal of a King, I really don't understand why you can't attack any of that King's vassals directly.
 
TerrySpeed said:
I think part of the reason you can't declare war on a vassal of another liege is that that liege has (1) sworn to protect his vassal and (2) could lose territory if you won the war. Hence it makes sense to have to declare war on that liege instead. It's the same reason you can't just attack a count of the HRE directly (unless you are a vassal of that count's liege).

Now what I don't understand is why you are not allowed to attack a vassal of the liege of your liege. If you are the vassal of a duke, and that duke is himself a vassal of a King, I really don't understand why you can't attack any of that King's vassals directly.
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Well that is my problem. I am a vassal of a duke who is vassal of an emperor, and I cannot wage war against that emperor's direct vassals. What difference does it make to the emperor if his direct vassal is attacked by another direct vassal vs. a vassal's vassal?
 
ZoCurious said:
Well that is my problem. I am a vassal of a duke who is vassal of an emperor, and I cannot wage war against that emperor's direct vassals. What difference does it make to the emperor if his direct vassal is attacked by another direct vassal vs. a vassal's vassal?
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By attacking the Emperor's direct vassal it could be seen as challenging the authority of the emperor, just ask Henry the Lion just how well Holy Roman Emperor Fredrick Barbarossa took having his authority challenged.
 
Darktrip said:
That don't seem right. William the Bastard/Conqueror is a duke fighting in a war that would bring him up to the same title equalence as his liege, the king of France.
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It was an invasion granted and outside the realm.

You are a vassal and thus your allegiance is to your liege, whose obligation it is to keep you in order. You are your lieges' vassal, not your lieges' liege one...and what Ashagar said above.
 
TerrySpeed said:
I think part of the reason you can't declare war on a vassal of another liege is that that liege has (1) sworn to protect his vassal and (2) could lose territory if you won the war. Hence it makes sense to have to declare war on that liege instead. It's the same reason you can't just attack a count of the HRE directly (unless you are a vassal of that count's liege).

Now what I don't understand is why you are not allowed to attack a vassal of the liege of your liege. If you are the vassal of a duke, and that duke is himself a vassal of a King, I really don't understand why you can't attack any of that King's vassals directly.
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Sometimes when I am the top liege, I have two of my vassals fighting each other. Say I am an Emperor, and I have a Duke and a Count vassal. The Duke declares war on the Count. He wins, and the Count becomes vassal to the Duke.

But since they are both originally my vassals, what happens is that I end up losing a vassal to my other vassal, through this internal war that I can't participate in!
 
Ashagar said:
By attacking the Emperor's direct vassal it could be seen as challenging the authority of the emperor, just ask Henry the Lion just how well Holy Roman Emperor Fredrick Barbarossa took having his authority challenged.
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Pardon me, but that's nonsense. The emperor's direct vassals attack his other direct vassals all the time. (They attack the emperor's own landed son given half a chance!) So why is that not seen as "challenging the authority of the emperor"? How is that different from an indirect vassal attacking a direct vassal?

Aardvark Bellay said:
It was an invasion granted and outside the realm.
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It nevertheless disproves the title-equal-to-liege explanation.

Aardvark Bellay said:
You are a vassal and thus your allegiance is to your liege, whose obligation it is to keep you in order.
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Keep me in order... by preventing me from waging war? No. By preventing me from pressing my claims? No. From troubling the emperor? Yes. But how am I troubling the emperor more than the dukes?
 
ZoCurious said:
Pardon me, but that's nonsense. The emperor's direct vassals attack his other direct vassals all the time. (They attack the emperor's own landed son given half a chance!) So why is that not seen as "challenging the authority of the emperor"? How is that different from an indirect vassal attacking a direct vassal ?
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But they are the emperors' vassals. Direct connection. The direct vassal has a direct link to his liege. A vassals' vassal doesn't.

It nevertheless disproves the title-equal-to-liege explanation.
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Nope, the explanation is valid inside the realm you are part of.

Keep me in order... by preventing me from waging war? No. By preventing me from pressing my claims? No. From troubling the emperor? Yes. But how am I troubling the emperor more than the dukes?
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The emperor has no link to you. Your liege has. Both are obliged to defend you form outside forces, as you are obliged to them. Same one level higher.
Feudalismus, pyramid of oath and obligations. Vassal relationships. Not nations. Sorry, but i won't look up the historic terms for it.
Some other historic reasons (pax something) might be the reason why it is in game as it is.
If the game would be completely historical though, you couldn't even do that to the extent as in game. So be grateful. ;)
 
Aardvark Bellay said:
But they are the emperors' vassals. Direct connection. The direct vassal has a direct link to his liege. A vassals' vassal doesn't.
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Yes, I think we've established that. I still don't see how it relates to this specific issue.

Aardvark Bellay said:
Nope, the explanation is valid inside the realm you are part of.
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And what difference does it make to my liege if I gain a title of his rank from outside the realm vs. a title of his rank from inside the realm? He loses me as vassal either way. The explanation thus doesn't hold water.

Aardvark Bellay said:
The emperor has no link to you. Your liege has. Both are obliged to defend you form outside forces, as you are obliged to them. Same one level higher.
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Outside forces. Exactly. I am not an "outside force". Neither is Holland. We are both within the borders of the Holy Roman Empire. The emperor is not obliged to defend his vassal from attacks within the Empire, obviously.

Aardvark Bellay said:
If the game would be completely historical though, you couldn't even do that to the extent as in game. So be grateful. ;)
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Do what? Be grateful for what? I'm afraid I don't follow.

Historically, Louis did fight for Holland (that's why he has the claim in game). He fought bitterly and persistently. It was a true succession war. All the while, he owed fealty to Brabant. That makes it obvious that there is no historical justification for this state of things. I imagine that there must be a gameplay reason, but everyone so far has been trying to provide historical reasoning even though there can obviously be none.
 
ZoCurious said:
And what difference does it make to my liege if I gain a title of his rank from outside the realm vs. a title of his rank from inside the realm? He loses me as vassal either way. The explanation thus doesn't hold water.
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A Duke can not be a vassal of a Duke, its not possible. Game mechanics don't permit it. If you were to become a Duke you would no longer be your liege's vassal and that DOES affect him. How would you like it if your vassals could declare independence by fighting a foreignor rather than fighting you direct. You need to declare independence from the Duke and defeat him (thus become a liege of his liege) before you can fight a vassal of your liege's liege.
Outside forces. Exactly. I am not an "outside force". Neither is Holland. We are both within the borders of the Holy Roman Empire. The emperor is not obliged to defend his vassal from attacks within the Empire, obviously.
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No your liege is. You are not when it comes to this, you are within the boundaries of your liege. Escape the constraints of your liege and then you can do what you wish.

EDIT: Just to clarify the rule is you must either declare a war on the top tier if they're foreignors (ie HRE) or your liege (ie your Duke) or a fellow direct vassal of your direct liege (ie a Count under your Duke). So you as a Count may fight your Duke, or if you escape your Duke and become a direct vassal of a King (ie one exists) you may fight that King's vassals, if no King (or you escape him) you may fight the Emperor's vassals. Rank doesn't matter, who the direct liege is matters. If vassals could become independent without fighting their liege then the game would be unplayable, so that is simply the way that it is.
 
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Ayn Mandarb said:
A Duke can not be a vassal of a Duke, its not possible. Game mechanics don't permit it. If you were to become a Duke you would no longer be your liege's vassal and that DOES affect him. How would you like it if your vassals could declare independence by fighting a foreignor rather than fighting you direct. You need to declare independence from the Duke and defeat him (thus become a liege of his liege) before you can fight a vassal of your liege's liege.
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Who on Earth said that I, as duke, would be vassal to a duke? Have you even read the sentence you quoted? "He loses me as vassal either way." And my vassals can gain independence from me by fighting foreigners rather than me directly. The most famous example of that happening has already been mentioned - William the Conqueror.

Ayn Mandarb said:
No your liege is. You are not when it comes to this, you are within the boundaries of your liege. Escape the constraints of your liege and then you can do what you wish.
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I am sorry, but this is entirely incoherent. My liege is what? I am not what? I am within the boundaries of the Empire. I am part of that big, grey blob that you cannot possibly miss when looking at Europe. So is Holland. Therefore, I am not an "outside force".
 
Ayn Mandarb said:
A Duke can not be a vassal of a Duke, its not possible. Game mechanics don't permit it. If you were to become a Duke you would no longer be your liege's vassal and that DOES affect him. How would you like it if your vassals could declare independence by fighting a foreignor rather than fighting you direct. You need to declare independence from the Duke and defeat him (thus become a liege of his liege) before you can fight a vassal of your liege's liege.
No your liege is. You are not when it comes to this, you are within the boundaries of your liege. Escape the constraints of your liege and then you can do what you wish.

EDIT: Just to clarify the rule is you must either declare a war on the top tier if they're foreignors (ie HRE) or your liege (ie your Duke) or a fellow direct vassal of your direct liege (ie a Count under your Duke). So you as a Count may fight your Duke, or if you escape your Duke and become a direct vassal of a King (ie one exists) you may fight that King's vassals, if no King (or you escape him) you may fight the Emperor's vassals. Rank doesn't matter, who the direct liege is matters. If vassals could become independent without fighting their liege then the game would be unplayable, so that is simply the way that it is.
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Yet you can escape your liege through an outside war if you launch an Invasion and gain a title that is equal (or greater) than your current liege.
 
Ayn Mandarb said:
EDIT: Just to clarify the rule is you must either declare a war on the top tier if they're foreignors (ie HRE) or your liege (ie your Duke) or a fellow direct vassal of your direct liege (ie a Count under your Duke). So you as a Count may fight your Duke, or if you escape your Duke and become a direct vassal of a King (ie one exists) you may fight that King's vassals, if no King (or you escape him) you may fight the Emperor's vassals. Rank doesn't matter, who the direct liege is matters.
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I understand that this is how the game works. I just don't see why it works like that. It's certainly not for reasons of historical accuracy, so I'm wondering if there is a gameplay-friendly reason behind this seemingly arbitrary rule.

Ayn Mandarb said:
If vassals could become independent without fighting their liege then the game would be unplayable, so that is simply the way that it is.
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As noted several times already, vassals can and often do become independent without fighting their liege. It happens in the game (and happened in real life) all the time. William II of Normandy invaded England and became independent from France; Theobald IV of Champagne inherited Navarre and became independent from France; Charles I of Anjou invaded Sicily and became independent from France, etc, etc, etc. Winning a crusade makes you independent from your liege unless he is an emperor. I suppose this game has never been playable then :eek:
 
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