Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Bureaucratic Empire and Court Nobility

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Crusader Kings II 69868 Bug Reports 19707 User Modifications 10588 Suggestions 5969 Tech Support 6361 After Action Reports
Mad King James

Mad King James

Buzzkill Extraordinaire
66 Badges
Jan 18, 2002
7.148
301
43
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
I think there needs to be a new government type to better suit empires like the Byzantine Empire, which isn't a Feudal state but rather a Bureaucratic Empire.

Basically speaking, a Bureaucratic Empire is limited to Empire and King tier titles and count and duke vassals are under Appointment succession. Like a merchant republic, in the capital there are 10 Great Houses (family palace but Duke level) who try to get members of their family appointed as counts and dukes and given important court titles, and ultimately to seize the throne for their dynasty. In a Bureaucratic Empire succession is technically primogeniture but if you can get enough people to join your Faction for you to be the next emperor, you become Emperor upon the death of the previous Emperor (though the Emperor doesn't vanish, his house is still one of the 10 "Great Houses").

The Great Houses can also try and get particular counties to become hereditary lands of their family rather than imperial lands, which is achieved by those counties being vassals of the Great House or those duke or king titles belonging to that Great House. The titles remain appointment succession but the Great House appoints them, not the emperor. If a Great House goes extinct, all their titles become imperial again and the most powerful family that isn't already a Great House is made the next Great House.
 
Last edited:
first of all we need a working Sebatapraktor(?) to simulate correctley the co emperorship practiced in the ERE.It s absurd it only had efect for the eldest non purple born son.It should be available for all the emperour s kinsmen and friends
 
Trunting said:
The problem is, that there were more than 10 families in the Empire. Historians estimate about 200 families being the core of the nobility.
Click to expand...

This is true, but this is abstracted here with the most powerful 10 families. It's the same with merchant republics, there were more than 5 powerful families in a merchant republic, but there were only a few who were powerful and influential enough to exercise real power.

AndreiTLC said:
first of all we need a working Sebatapraktor(?) to simulate correctley the co emperorship practiced in the ERE.It s absurd it only had efect for the eldest non purple born son.It should be available for all the emperour s kinsmen and friends
Click to expand...

A Sebastokrator or Caesar should really just be a king level vassal of a Greek Bureaucratic Empire, appointed by the Emperor. If they are a prince then they are Despotes.
 
Mad King James said:
I think there needs to be a new government type to better suit empires like the Byzantine Empire, which isn't a Feudal state but rather a Bureaucratic Empire.

Basically speaking, a Bureaucratic Empire is limited to Empire and King tier titles and count and duke vassals are under Appointment succession. Like a merchant republic, in the capital there are 10 Great Houses (family palace but Duke level) who try to get members of their family appointed as counts and dukes and given important court titles, and ultimately to seize the throne for their dynasty. In a Bureaucratic Empire succession is technically primogeniture but if you can get enough people to join your Faction for you to be the next emperor, you become Emperor upon the death of the previous Emperor (though the Emperor doesn't vanish, his house is still one of the 10 "Great Houses").
Click to expand...

Isn't the special status of the Byzantines already set up with their ability to revoke duchies for free and elective law?

Unlike feudal realms, the ability to revoke duchies means that many titles in the empire are not dynastic; they are bureaucratic. The fact that the dukes can resist having their titles revoked represent revolts against central rule.

The system could use more fleshing out, but combine these two mechanics with crown laws, and the current set up isn't too bad.
 
Secret Master said:
Isn't the special status of the Byzantines already set up with their ability to revoke duchies for free and elective law?

Unlike feudal realms, the ability to revoke duchies means that many titles in the empire are not dynastic; they are bureaucratic. The fact that the dukes can resist having their titles revoked represent revolts against central rule.

The system could use more fleshing out, but combine these two mechanics with crown laws, and the current set up isn't too bad.
Click to expand...

It's a bit of a kludge really, the Byzantine Empire was not exactly an elective monarchy, it was effectively one due to the fact that seizing the throne was a not uncommon occurrence, due to the powerful court aristocracy. Imperial rule alone wasn't centralized, the aristocracy was also centralized. Anyone of any importance lived in Constantinople, including the most militarily powerful families. Doux and katepano assigned to command provinces outside the capital were all appointed by Constantinople.

While the current system roughly approximates a Bureaucratic Empire, it has those key flaws which make it an inaccurate portrayal.
 
With respect, more or less unworkable - the emperor appointing every count and duke would be tedious in the extreme. Gameplaywise, the emperor just gives the good provinces to his family and everything else to independents - so much for the risk of revolt.

Also count titles are linked to land ownership in game - even assuming titles were up for grabs at low levels (titles do have a habit of becoming hereditary in practice), estates really weren't.
 
I support the general idea of this since there could always be an-autoassigning system like the one we know from the catholicchurch bishop's appointments. If the empereor doesnt assign anyone a random courtier representing the local nobility wouzld be chosen.
 
Just change your succession rule to elective. Then mod your game files to make appointment succession available in the country you're playing. Switch all your king titles to appointment, hand them out, then presto chango: 'bureaucratic empire.'
 
AndreiTLC said:
first of all we need a working Sebatapraktor(?) to simulate correctley the co emperorship practiced in the ERE.It s absurd it only had efect for the eldest non purple born son.It should be available for all the emperour s kinsmen and friends
Click to expand...
You can designate your heir using the Despot title (I renamed it to Symbasileus, which means co-emperor) if you replace the born in the purple trait with a benign clone. Basic primogeniture lets you designate your children or grandchildren as heirs, whereas seniority lets you pick any member of your dynasty. I think I was able to get it working with elective as well, but it's been a while since I tried it. Giving a character the despot title made them your heir even if your vassals voted for someone else, assuming I'm remembering correctly.
 
Talq said:
With respect, more or less unworkable - the emperor appointing every count and duke would be tedious in the extreme. Gameplaywise, the emperor just gives the good provinces to his family and everything else to independents - so much for the risk of revolt.

Also count titles are linked to land ownership in game - even assuming titles were up for grabs at low levels (titles do have a habit of becoming hereditary in practice), estates really weren't.
Click to expand...
The emperor should appoint dukes and in turn, the dukes should appoint counts. I'd also like to see exarchs, king level titles that can be revoked without penalty and minus the -25 vassal king penalty too.Downside is that you really should think twice before appointing anyone exarch considering the exarch of Africa had enough power to depose the emperor historically.
 
Last edited:
This sounds cool. I totally agree something better needs to be in place than the current system - I really like the idea of joustling families in the capital and appointed bureaucracy. It would help combat much of the blobbing and absence of decline people complain about.

The only issue for me is I can imagine this being something where the AI would consistently fall flat in managing it, resulting in very short reigns and civil wars followed shortly by collapse under the weight of Jihad.
 
how would you play as a vassal?
oh right you wouldnt,
lets find more ways to make the ere even more unstoppable.
 
Those are rather good ideas. Most titles in Empire (except baronies) could be appointive in similar way to investiture. As for micromanagement, you would simply create vassal kings, who would take care of appointing dukes, and so on. One thing, is that in absence of appointing successor, inheritance of title should default to gavelkind, instead of randomly generated character.
 
richie05 said:
how would you play as a vassal?
oh right you wouldnt,
lets find more ways to make the ere even more unstoppable.
Click to expand...
What's wrong about playing a vassal? Arguably, it's easier to play as a vassal in the ERE than elsewhere since the ruling dynasty changes often.There'd be greater opportunities to usurp the throne.
 
I like this idea. Trouble is it would need a DLC and I think a second one focusing on just the Romans is unlikely.

Trunting said:
The problem is, that there were more than 10 families in the Empire. Historians estimate about 200 families being the core of the nobility.
Click to expand...

You could always have a pool of minor houses, with less interaction options, but with the occasional genius member that one of the majors might want to appoint. And the minors would always be ready to seize the place of any major that didn't play the intrigue game too well and fell down the rankings.

richie05 said:
how would you play as a vassal?

oh right you wouldnt,

lets find more ways to make the ere even more unstoppable.
Click to expand...

It'd be the same as being a non-controlling patrician in a merchant republic.
 
richie05 said:
how would you play as a vassal?
oh right you wouldnt,
lets find more ways to make the ere even more unstoppable.
Click to expand...
I think the best solution would be to only lock ducal titles into appointment. I represent Byzantine counties in my mod as the local holdings of the Empire's aristocracy so they can be inherited normally.
 
gja102 said:
I like this idea. Trouble is it would need a DLC and I think a second one focusing on just the Romans is unlikely.



You could always have a pool of minor houses, with less interaction options, but with the occasional genius member that one of the majors might want to appoint. And the minors would always be ready to seize the place of any major that didn't play the intrigue game too well and fell down the rankings.



It'd be the same as being a non-controlling patrician in a merchant republic.
Click to expand...

Exactly right, being a great house in a Bureaucratic Empire is less centric towards particular lands but rather your dynasty's overall position in the whole empire.
 
The 10 families could be workable, provided that other families could ascend to/descend from the top 10 based on the total prestige of living members (the Imperial family would always be in the top 10 as long as the Emperor is of that dynasty, but having less prestige than a family outside the top 10 should increase the risk of factions, perhaps).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back