I have great love for military theory practice, also i have great love for game and game making (being a mobile game developer-game designer) and Heart of Iron really really satisfy my need, kudos to HOIs dev.
In this topic i'll try to discuss about actually application of real life Military Strategy and its effect in HOI3. And hopefully it can help or open discussion HOI4 can bring even better experience : (and i am sorry if my English is not that good, since it's second language for me)
1 Blitzkrieg (Geman): work amazingly in HOI3, i really really love it and looking for HOI4 minor improvement to this.
2 Deep Operation (Soviet): not really work in HOI3 mostly because of supply system and artillery system.
3 Air Supremacy (US late WWII and until now): do not really work well in HOI3.
Hopefully HOI4 can make Deep Operation and Air Supremacy work.
Wall of text incoming ^.^:
Rant /on
But first please let me complain about the AI in Heart of Iron 3, the AI work on their own regardless of what the player have in mind it make the player have on 2 choice which ares:
>>Let the AI do something:
Pros: To lessen the micro and information burden (the front load information is really troublesome for HOI, i have to read wiki for 10~12 hours before i can actually play my game).
Con: the AI do something stupid or opposite of the player strategy.
>>Do it yourself:
Pros: if you want to get something done, do it yourself.
Con : crazy amount of front load information/game rules you have to learn, and then crazy amount of information you have to take each day in the game to make micros decisions.
I hope there is something in between, assign a Political/Military leader with traits, and give them certain objective so that they can lessen the burden of micro and information for the player.
It also reinforce the feeling of being the supreme leader that you can promote/sacks your general or give the direct order yourself.
Rant /off
1 Blitzkrieg in HOI3:
HOI3 have very good system which is combat Width, it present the idea of front line (without letting the player have to micro manage their front line), and also the research of the German to lower their Mot/Mec/Armour combat width, It's the idea of Blitzkrieg: high concentration of Armour to punch a hole in enemy front and then pour troop into the corridor, using Panzer speed to encircle the enemy and destroy their army.
I have great enjoyment to pull off Blitzkrieg army movement to encircle and destroy the whole churn of enemy army, i feel great when i close the Pincer Movement which trap like 40 Soviet Division in Kiev. North Kiev Pincer: Guderian Panzer Corps (5 Divs), South Kiev Pincer Rommel Panzer Corps (5 Divs) with support of Center, South and North Kiev Infantry Corps (15 Divs) and Rev Kiev Inf Corps (5 Divs) to throw-in hot area and support minor pincer movement to trap enemy counter attack - Rev troop.
But after you finish off a churn of enemy army, there was no notice from the game that you are doing great beside some trivia enemy IC-lost, Manpower-lost. In my Barbarossa: 40 Soviet Union division encircled around Kiev, and another 20 soviet division encircled around Olevsk and utterly destroyed , there was no feedback from the game that i am doing great, that my army is winning or boosting morale of my man after great victory or i am winning the war and my panzer freely to strike Moskva, Tula, Kalinnin and Odessa, Leningrad in the South. When the game pop-up or feedback to you the player, there was mostly bad news (we are under attack....)
There are only 2 things i can complain when i am Blitzkrieg role playing:
>>The AI is too bad:
It mean i can't rely on the AI the do the Blitzkrieg for me, but also my enemy is too bad and it make the game challenging only by number (decrease my IC so that i have less unit to make the game harder, not that the enemy is more smart and counter my Blitzkrieg Panzer swing like that the Soviet did to German).
I found out that the enemy AI is just super bad general, which they can not read where is my obviously strongest blow going to be, and they desperately throwing more unit into my trap, or release their strongest Rev unit in bad terrain area which make them become easy prey for my fast moving army, and the most fatal mistake that the AI make is they do not know when to retreat once the situation is sure-lost.
Sometime i even found my Panzer swing start where enemy have no unit at the front, i can just pour in troops and exploit their rear without any problem of making a breakthrough, easy cake.
>> The micro management nightmare (i have high hope for the grand battle plan in HOI4 to solve this)
Sometime the HOI become the paper planning game for me to make the battle plan, arrange the order of battle and then execute it. I hope the grand battle plan in HOI4 can address this problem, maybe the general in your county can propose a battle plan and you as supreme leader can approve it, or supreme leader come up with a plan and ask the generals to execute it.
As in HOI3, i have to plan all of the terrain, possible enemy movement, attack route, schedule for each unit, where are my front line punching unit, where are for following up unit, where are my encirclement unit, where can the enemy counter attack and where should i put my Rev Unit...and then i have to actually build them in the production menu, assign leader, make corps, army, army group... you get the idea.
The nightmare become worst when the actual fighting start, you have to remember all of your unit name and objective in your plan (on paper) to make they execute it in the game.
IE:
Phase 1 in the North Kiev (similar things to the South Kiev with Rommel Panzer Corps)
3 Punch Infantry Div from Kiev Center Corp to punch the hole, 1 Infantry Div attacking to the north, Guderian 1 Panzer Div attacking to the south to prevent counter attack.
Others unit pour into the gaps: Guderian 2 rush for Kiev, Guderian 3,4,5 protect Guderian 2 Flank and close the North Pincer Movement.
North Kiev Corps with 5 Infantry division pour into the gaps and protect the supply line, encircle the enemy.
Phase 2:
Guderian 1,3,4 Panzer protecting the flank from enemy Revserved unit, Guderian 2,5 rush for Tula.......
Phase 3: finish off the encircled enemy
Phase 4: Strategic redeploy your infantry guarding the flank for panzer to strike into cities....
Or sometime the plan look like this
Von Manstein 1,4 Panzer swing to the North, avoid enemy Rev Unit Blows, then swing the right and start the encirclement enemy Revs....
I really have no choice since i can not trust the AI to execute my plan. If you let the AI do it for you, they do it poorly, i tried to let the AI control my army a couple of time and they did not do proper Blitzkrieg encircle movement, i think you can only giving area objective for the AI, they take area with big army movement, not decisively Push and encircle with proper troop placement to capture all of your enemy unit.
In Barbarossa after i won the Soviet, i reload the game and let the AI do all of troop movement decision i won the war after 7 months wasted many of my unit and i have to used up all of my Reserved unit for England campaign. (while i win the war in 45 days when i do it myself, and i still have unit to carry out England paratroop invasion campaign the same year)
(Details about micro management burnden all of information below is from my 1st HOI3 game which i play Germany on Normal Difficulty):
Poland invasion
It took me 9 in-game days to conquer Poland in Oct 1938 (around 45min in super micro heavy game play) but it take me around 3 hours to plan and make the order of battle for my Blitzkrieg Panzer Spearhead and the following up infantry support which i do in 1936, and start building my army accordingly.
The Fate of France:
It took me only 25 in-game days (around 2 hours micro gameplay) in the mid of winter (Dec 1938 - i do this because i was waiting for The Anex of Czechlovakia decision before invave Polend and France after that), but the planing also took me around 3 hours to rearrange my Poland army into France invasion army.
Barbarossa:
It took me 27 in-game days to take Moskva and Leningrad, around in-game 45 days (around 6 hours micro gameplay) for the Soviet to surrender in July 1939. The planning alone took me 2 days on the A4 paper which i print out the game map, and the order of battle took me another 1 day of real life time to bring the Soviet Union to its knee with about 60 Infantry and 24 Panzer Devision in July 1939. But this time i use Deep Operation Strategy (because i invade the Soviet too soon, i didn't finish my Reduce Combat Width research and i also want to try Deep Operation for lol and giggles, beating Soviet Union with their own strategy)
So most of my game, i play on paper planning without picking the actual game the play @@.
2 Deep Operation
I trired to pull off this strategy in Barbarossa (my first game version in May 1939 which start from Poland-Soviet border since i didn't give the Soviet 1/2 Poland, which give me time to build infrastructures and airfields to prepare for Soviet invasion)
I can still pull this off because of the AI is too bad and can not guess my Panzer Blows starting point, if AI was another human and put strong dug-in unit in my Panzer starting point, and put strong Armour Revs behind i am going to be in a bit of trouble. But still Deep Operation feel almost similar to Blitzkrieg because of 2 reasons: (it is a bit a a rant, but i am still very happy with defeating my enemy with Blitzkrieg movement)
>>The lacking of Artillery Shock/breakthrough divisions:
In the end of the actually War, Soviet is really the master or Artillery, they have high concentration of Artillery near the breakthrough point to make sure their infantry and heavy tank and punch a hole and their amour and mech corps can exploit. IE: Vistula–Oder Offensive Soviet Union used like 13,000 Artillery in about 15 Breakthrough Artillery Division.
In HOI3 we can still do something similar to that, but a better combined arm unit is more effective to be a breakthrough Divs while actually in the war, we can have strong Artillery placement near the front and rain down barrage from there and then move the artillery to strike elsewhere in the front once breakthrough is done.
WWII seen amour no longer only support the Infantry on foot, but used as concentrated column to attack the enemy. And WWII also seen artillery hailstorm to break the front apart and clear way for Mech offensive, Artillery is not only infantry support brigade anymore.
>>The lacking of actual supply Truck column and supply train, supply deport:
Deep Operation Phase 1 was about attack the enemy with such a force that break his formation apart (not only at the breakthrough area)
Deep operation Phase 2-3 was about finish the enemy not but only big encircle movement like Blitzkrieg but also capture enemy support deport, airfield, destroy enemy supply truck column and trains, even when the enemy not encircled, they still in effective for the lack of supply and leave them to the frontline troop with support form artillery.
To pull this off, you also have to build your supply truck/train column of your own and protect with (sometime from 2 sides which was pocketed enemy break out and out side enemy counter attack) It was more complex army movement and let you use your panzer to strike as you pleased.
And sometime i am still mad because i have all the time in the world in Poland to build strong train and supply column, supply carrying planes to carry to captured airport but none of them work in HOI3 because the system didn't allow me, i wasted IC on building 2 Transport plane Air Group, each consist 4 squadron and since i couldn't use them to carry supply, i end up using them to carry paratrooper to England instead.
Sometime my Panzer deep strike is delayed by a couple of days for supply, if not for that, the Soviet Union can be finished in 30 days with their own Deep Operation strategy. (it is a bit personal for me when i can't properly pull of Deep Operation T.T, since i love Mikhail Tukhachevsky and Stalin killed him in the purge, but i guess it is not big issue for most of HOI player)
And the lacking of actually supply column also make the Air Supremacy Strategy less effective than it actually is.
3 Air Supremacy
I read the Dev Dairy that Air combat going to change, i hope this also help improve the feeling pulling off Air Supremacy in HOI since you do not have to destroy all of near by province Infrastructure to completely encircled your enemy by cutting off their supply line. Actually you only need to scout for convoy and destroy them + destroy Infrastructure in key area, destroy train, destroy deport to make the enemy feel encircled without support and supply coming to them without being actually encircled in the ground.
I have really high hope HOI4 and looking forward to the feeling of being great general and great supreme leader in WWII - Victory, victory at all cost.
In this topic i'll try to discuss about actually application of real life Military Strategy and its effect in HOI3. And hopefully it can help or open discussion HOI4 can bring even better experience : (and i am sorry if my English is not that good, since it's second language for me)
1 Blitzkrieg (Geman): work amazingly in HOI3, i really really love it and looking for HOI4 minor improvement to this.
2 Deep Operation (Soviet): not really work in HOI3 mostly because of supply system and artillery system.
3 Air Supremacy (US late WWII and until now): do not really work well in HOI3.
Hopefully HOI4 can make Deep Operation and Air Supremacy work.
Wall of text incoming ^.^:
Rant /on
But first please let me complain about the AI in Heart of Iron 3, the AI work on their own regardless of what the player have in mind it make the player have on 2 choice which ares:
>>Let the AI do something:
Pros: To lessen the micro and information burden (the front load information is really troublesome for HOI, i have to read wiki for 10~12 hours before i can actually play my game).
Con: the AI do something stupid or opposite of the player strategy.
>>Do it yourself:
Pros: if you want to get something done, do it yourself.
Con : crazy amount of front load information/game rules you have to learn, and then crazy amount of information you have to take each day in the game to make micros decisions.
I hope there is something in between, assign a Political/Military leader with traits, and give them certain objective so that they can lessen the burden of micro and information for the player.
It also reinforce the feeling of being the supreme leader that you can promote/sacks your general or give the direct order yourself.
Rant /off
1 Blitzkrieg in HOI3:
HOI3 have very good system which is combat Width, it present the idea of front line (without letting the player have to micro manage their front line), and also the research of the German to lower their Mot/Mec/Armour combat width, It's the idea of Blitzkrieg: high concentration of Armour to punch a hole in enemy front and then pour troop into the corridor, using Panzer speed to encircle the enemy and destroy their army.
I have great enjoyment to pull off Blitzkrieg army movement to encircle and destroy the whole churn of enemy army, i feel great when i close the Pincer Movement which trap like 40 Soviet Division in Kiev. North Kiev Pincer: Guderian Panzer Corps (5 Divs), South Kiev Pincer Rommel Panzer Corps (5 Divs) with support of Center, South and North Kiev Infantry Corps (15 Divs) and Rev Kiev Inf Corps (5 Divs) to throw-in hot area and support minor pincer movement to trap enemy counter attack - Rev troop.
But after you finish off a churn of enemy army, there was no notice from the game that you are doing great beside some trivia enemy IC-lost, Manpower-lost. In my Barbarossa: 40 Soviet Union division encircled around Kiev, and another 20 soviet division encircled around Olevsk and utterly destroyed , there was no feedback from the game that i am doing great, that my army is winning or boosting morale of my man after great victory or i am winning the war and my panzer freely to strike Moskva, Tula, Kalinnin and Odessa, Leningrad in the South. When the game pop-up or feedback to you the player, there was mostly bad news (we are under attack....)
There are only 2 things i can complain when i am Blitzkrieg role playing:
>>The AI is too bad:
It mean i can't rely on the AI the do the Blitzkrieg for me, but also my enemy is too bad and it make the game challenging only by number (decrease my IC so that i have less unit to make the game harder, not that the enemy is more smart and counter my Blitzkrieg Panzer swing like that the Soviet did to German).
I found out that the enemy AI is just super bad general, which they can not read where is my obviously strongest blow going to be, and they desperately throwing more unit into my trap, or release their strongest Rev unit in bad terrain area which make them become easy prey for my fast moving army, and the most fatal mistake that the AI make is they do not know when to retreat once the situation is sure-lost.
Sometime i even found my Panzer swing start where enemy have no unit at the front, i can just pour in troops and exploit their rear without any problem of making a breakthrough, easy cake.
>> The micro management nightmare (i have high hope for the grand battle plan in HOI4 to solve this)
Sometime the HOI become the paper planning game for me to make the battle plan, arrange the order of battle and then execute it. I hope the grand battle plan in HOI4 can address this problem, maybe the general in your county can propose a battle plan and you as supreme leader can approve it, or supreme leader come up with a plan and ask the generals to execute it.
As in HOI3, i have to plan all of the terrain, possible enemy movement, attack route, schedule for each unit, where are my front line punching unit, where are for following up unit, where are my encirclement unit, where can the enemy counter attack and where should i put my Rev Unit...and then i have to actually build them in the production menu, assign leader, make corps, army, army group... you get the idea.
The nightmare become worst when the actual fighting start, you have to remember all of your unit name and objective in your plan (on paper) to make they execute it in the game.
IE:
Phase 1 in the North Kiev (similar things to the South Kiev with Rommel Panzer Corps)
3 Punch Infantry Div from Kiev Center Corp to punch the hole, 1 Infantry Div attacking to the north, Guderian 1 Panzer Div attacking to the south to prevent counter attack.
Others unit pour into the gaps: Guderian 2 rush for Kiev, Guderian 3,4,5 protect Guderian 2 Flank and close the North Pincer Movement.
North Kiev Corps with 5 Infantry division pour into the gaps and protect the supply line, encircle the enemy.
Phase 2:
Guderian 1,3,4 Panzer protecting the flank from enemy Revserved unit, Guderian 2,5 rush for Tula.......
Phase 3: finish off the encircled enemy
Phase 4: Strategic redeploy your infantry guarding the flank for panzer to strike into cities....
Or sometime the plan look like this
Von Manstein 1,4 Panzer swing to the North, avoid enemy Rev Unit Blows, then swing the right and start the encirclement enemy Revs....
I really have no choice since i can not trust the AI to execute my plan. If you let the AI do it for you, they do it poorly, i tried to let the AI control my army a couple of time and they did not do proper Blitzkrieg encircle movement, i think you can only giving area objective for the AI, they take area with big army movement, not decisively Push and encircle with proper troop placement to capture all of your enemy unit.
In Barbarossa after i won the Soviet, i reload the game and let the AI do all of troop movement decision i won the war after 7 months wasted many of my unit and i have to used up all of my Reserved unit for England campaign. (while i win the war in 45 days when i do it myself, and i still have unit to carry out England paratroop invasion campaign the same year)
(Details about micro management burnden all of information below is from my 1st HOI3 game which i play Germany on Normal Difficulty):
Poland invasion
It took me 9 in-game days to conquer Poland in Oct 1938 (around 45min in super micro heavy game play) but it take me around 3 hours to plan and make the order of battle for my Blitzkrieg Panzer Spearhead and the following up infantry support which i do in 1936, and start building my army accordingly.
The Fate of France:
It took me only 25 in-game days (around 2 hours micro gameplay) in the mid of winter (Dec 1938 - i do this because i was waiting for The Anex of Czechlovakia decision before invave Polend and France after that), but the planing also took me around 3 hours to rearrange my Poland army into France invasion army.
Barbarossa:
It took me 27 in-game days to take Moskva and Leningrad, around in-game 45 days (around 6 hours micro gameplay) for the Soviet to surrender in July 1939. The planning alone took me 2 days on the A4 paper which i print out the game map, and the order of battle took me another 1 day of real life time to bring the Soviet Union to its knee with about 60 Infantry and 24 Panzer Devision in July 1939. But this time i use Deep Operation Strategy (because i invade the Soviet too soon, i didn't finish my Reduce Combat Width research and i also want to try Deep Operation for lol and giggles, beating Soviet Union with their own strategy)
So most of my game, i play on paper planning without picking the actual game the play @@.
2 Deep Operation
I trired to pull off this strategy in Barbarossa (my first game version in May 1939 which start from Poland-Soviet border since i didn't give the Soviet 1/2 Poland, which give me time to build infrastructures and airfields to prepare for Soviet invasion)
I can still pull this off because of the AI is too bad and can not guess my Panzer Blows starting point, if AI was another human and put strong dug-in unit in my Panzer starting point, and put strong Armour Revs behind i am going to be in a bit of trouble. But still Deep Operation feel almost similar to Blitzkrieg because of 2 reasons: (it is a bit a a rant, but i am still very happy with defeating my enemy with Blitzkrieg movement)
>>The lacking of Artillery Shock/breakthrough divisions:
In the end of the actually War, Soviet is really the master or Artillery, they have high concentration of Artillery near the breakthrough point to make sure their infantry and heavy tank and punch a hole and their amour and mech corps can exploit. IE: Vistula–Oder Offensive Soviet Union used like 13,000 Artillery in about 15 Breakthrough Artillery Division.
In HOI3 we can still do something similar to that, but a better combined arm unit is more effective to be a breakthrough Divs while actually in the war, we can have strong Artillery placement near the front and rain down barrage from there and then move the artillery to strike elsewhere in the front once breakthrough is done.
WWII seen amour no longer only support the Infantry on foot, but used as concentrated column to attack the enemy. And WWII also seen artillery hailstorm to break the front apart and clear way for Mech offensive, Artillery is not only infantry support brigade anymore.
>>The lacking of actual supply Truck column and supply train, supply deport:
Deep Operation Phase 1 was about attack the enemy with such a force that break his formation apart (not only at the breakthrough area)
Deep operation Phase 2-3 was about finish the enemy not but only big encircle movement like Blitzkrieg but also capture enemy support deport, airfield, destroy enemy supply truck column and trains, even when the enemy not encircled, they still in effective for the lack of supply and leave them to the frontline troop with support form artillery.
To pull this off, you also have to build your supply truck/train column of your own and protect with (sometime from 2 sides which was pocketed enemy break out and out side enemy counter attack) It was more complex army movement and let you use your panzer to strike as you pleased.
And sometime i am still mad because i have all the time in the world in Poland to build strong train and supply column, supply carrying planes to carry to captured airport but none of them work in HOI3 because the system didn't allow me, i wasted IC on building 2 Transport plane Air Group, each consist 4 squadron and since i couldn't use them to carry supply, i end up using them to carry paratrooper to England instead.
Sometime my Panzer deep strike is delayed by a couple of days for supply, if not for that, the Soviet Union can be finished in 30 days with their own Deep Operation strategy. (it is a bit personal for me when i can't properly pull of Deep Operation T.T, since i love Mikhail Tukhachevsky and Stalin killed him in the purge, but i guess it is not big issue for most of HOI player)
And the lacking of actually supply column also make the Air Supremacy Strategy less effective than it actually is.
3 Air Supremacy
I read the Dev Dairy that Air combat going to change, i hope this also help improve the feeling pulling off Air Supremacy in HOI since you do not have to destroy all of near by province Infrastructure to completely encircled your enemy by cutting off their supply line. Actually you only need to scout for convoy and destroy them + destroy Infrastructure in key area, destroy train, destroy deport to make the enemy feel encircled without support and supply coming to them without being actually encircled in the ground.
I have really high hope HOI4 and looking forward to the feeling of being great general and great supreme leader in WWII - Victory, victory at all cost.
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