Czech Tank Tech Tree
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While LT vz. 38 is still on the line whether it's an MT or LT, I'd consider LT vz. 40 already a light tank for its year of making. Even the LT vz. 38 nA was designated to be a light recon tank, but Germans rather prefered their own tank design, the Panzer II "Luchs".
I don't find it too unrealistic to have a big gun on a light chassis (literally a gun carrier rather than a tank), though it would be an upgrade of the standing LT vz. 40 rather than a brand new tank anyway, assuming you'll be able to customize the tanks to your taste. Nevermind, I'll work my way around
Is the 8cm gun real or not then?
It was being designed by the Germans. It involved attaching a Panzer IV turret onto the Hetzer chassis with a 8cm 600 PAW gun.
http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm Scroll down a bit. (This page has a ton of lt vz 38 variants, see if something strikes your interest.)
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index...pfwagen-38t-with-pz4-turret-and-8-cm-paw-600/ A wot player commenting on it and it's brief design history.
It kind of resembles a Panther tank.
http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm Scroll down a bit. (This page has a ton of lt vz 38 variants, see if something strikes your interest.)
http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index...pfwagen-38t-with-pz4-turret-and-8-cm-paw-600/ A wot player commenting on it and it's brief design history.
It kind of resembles a Panther tank.
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Wow, awesome, so I can use it no problem! I couldn't find it and there you go; you found something I didn't!
I'll upload my version of the tree today
I'll upload my version of the tree today
How about adding the German improved versions of the Czech medium tanks as their own models?
ČKD LT vz.38
ČKD ST vz.39
ČKD LT vz.40 (PzKpfw 38(t) ausf E)
ČKD LT vz.42 (Pz.Kpfw 38(t) neuer Art)
ČKD LT vz.38
ČKD ST vz.39
ČKD LT vz.40 (PzKpfw 38(t) ausf E)
ČKD LT vz.42 (Pz.Kpfw 38(t) neuer Art)
That's a good idea!
Two things: Pz.Kpfw 38 (nA) isn't called LT vz. 42. Moppy did it right and put Pz.Kpfw 38 (nA) as well as LT vz. 40 at the same level and I let it be in that way. Secondly, Germans never really used ST vz. 39, as they used Pz.Kpfw III rather
And, of course, you need to have a check there. You cannot really have Germans using these tank models when they don't occupy Czechoslovakia.
I've decided to do a rather revolutionary thing with the tank tree; I've split it up between the two ever-rivaling companies. Both had a large number of prototypes and both were important for the development of Czechoslovakian armor. With splitting it to companies' branches you also gain a logical evolution line.
The tree overall doesn't look very nice graphically, as I've put together parts of Moppy's and my work together. On the other hand, it's fully fuctional and logical.
What might surprise you is that LT vz. 35 isn't in the ČKD line, instead it is in the Škoda line, but that's entirely correct. The competition was won by this tank, so it got the honor of having a standardized name, otherwise it would named Š-II-a. Same deal with LT vz. 34 (P-II), LT vz. 38 (TNHPS), LT vz. 40 (LTH, LTS) or Pz.Kpfw 38(t) nA (TNH nA). So if you see any of these letters' combinations together in the future, you might have a glance what is it about.
The ST vz. 39 is no else tank than V-8-H I mentioned earlier. It's a dead-end in the branch, as it wasn't developed after the German occupation, as they already had their Panzer IIIs.
Š-II-c is T-21, the tank was licensed to Hungary and they renamed it to "Turán". It's on par with the V-8-H in both armament and armor.
Tanks in a red rectangle are considered as light tanks(together with the T-15). All of the tanks here have 30mm armor at best, which cannot be considered enough for a "medium" tank at that time, with all those Matildas, Panzer IVs and T-34s already driving around.
Note: This isn't a full tank tree. Some tanks had their TD and SPG variations, but for the lack of working space I couldn't really list anything more than the basic types, unless I was really running out of ideas, for example, I had to deal with tank shortage for the 1943 period.
I'm open to suggestions in changes of the tree, as long as they're reasonable and referenced
Sources:
http://ftr-wot.blogspot.cz/2013/02/czechoslovak-tree-part-5-premiumssummary.html (English)
http://www.playzone.cz/clanky/wot-ceskoslovenska-technika-aneb-tanky-naseho-puvodu-1-dil (Czech)
http://forum.valka.cz/index.php/f/500381 (English/Czech)
http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm (English)
Thanks for your attention!
P.S. I'd appreciate if Moppy could put it into the original post, something in the lines of "My concept" and "Ikarases' concept". I don't want to start another thread, as the discussion would get cluttered and all the people who were interested are probably reading this post anyway
The tree overall doesn't look very nice graphically, as I've put together parts of Moppy's and my work together. On the other hand, it's fully fuctional and logical.
What might surprise you is that LT vz. 35 isn't in the ČKD line, instead it is in the Škoda line, but that's entirely correct. The competition was won by this tank, so it got the honor of having a standardized name, otherwise it would named Š-II-a. Same deal with LT vz. 34 (P-II), LT vz. 38 (TNHPS), LT vz. 40 (LTH, LTS) or Pz.Kpfw 38(t) nA (TNH nA). So if you see any of these letters' combinations together in the future, you might have a glance what is it about.
The ST vz. 39 is no else tank than V-8-H I mentioned earlier. It's a dead-end in the branch, as it wasn't developed after the German occupation, as they already had their Panzer IIIs.
Š-II-c is T-21, the tank was licensed to Hungary and they renamed it to "Turán". It's on par with the V-8-H in both armament and armor.
Tanks in a red rectangle are considered as light tanks(together with the T-15). All of the tanks here have 30mm armor at best, which cannot be considered enough for a "medium" tank at that time, with all those Matildas, Panzer IVs and T-34s already driving around.
Note: This isn't a full tank tree. Some tanks had their TD and SPG variations, but for the lack of working space I couldn't really list anything more than the basic types, unless I was really running out of ideas, for example, I had to deal with tank shortage for the 1943 period.
I'm open to suggestions in changes of the tree, as long as they're reasonable and referenced
Sources:
http://ftr-wot.blogspot.cz/2013/02/czechoslovak-tree-part-5-premiumssummary.html (English)
http://www.playzone.cz/clanky/wot-ceskoslovenska-technika-aneb-tanky-naseho-puvodu-1-dil (Czech)
http://forum.valka.cz/index.php/f/500381 (English/Czech)
http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm (English)
Thanks for your attention!
P.S. I'd appreciate if Moppy could put it into the original post, something in the lines of "My concept" and "Ikarases' concept". I don't want to start another thread, as the discussion would get cluttered and all the people who were interested are probably reading this post anyway
I've decided to do a rather revolutionary thing with the tank tree; I've split it up between the two ever-rivaling companies. Both had a large number of prototypes and both were important for the development of Czechoslovakian armor. With splitting it to companies' branches you also gain a logical evolution line.
The tree overall doesn't look very nice graphically, as I've put together parts of Moppy's and my work together. On the other hand, it's fully fuctional and logical.
What might surprise you is that LT vz. 35 isn't in the ČKD line, instead it is in the Škoda line, but that's entirely correct. The competition was won by this tank, so it got the honor of having a standardized name, otherwise it would named Š-II-a. Same deal with LT vz. 34 (P-II), LT vz. 38 (TNHPS), LT vz. 40 (LTH, LTS) or Pz.Kpfw 38(t) nA (TNH nA). So if you see any of these letters' combinations together in the future, you might have a glance what is it about.
The ST vz. 39 is no else tank than V-8-H I mentioned earlier. It's a dead-end in the branch, as it wasn't developed after the German occupation, as they already had their Panzer IIIs.
Š-II-c is T-21, the tank was licensed to Hungary and they renamed it to "Turán". It's on par with the V-8-H in both armament and armor.
Tanks in a red rectangle are considered as light tanks(together with the T-15). All of the tanks here have 30mm armor at best, which cannot be considered enough for a "medium" tank at that time, with all those Matildas, Panzer IVs and T-34s already driving around.
Note: This isn't a full tank tree. Some tanks had their TD and SPG variations, but for the lack of working space I couldn't really list anything more than the basic types, unless I was really running out of ideas, for example, I had to deal with tank shortage for the 1943 period.
I'm open to suggestions in changes of the tree, as long as they're reasonable and referenced
Sources:
http://ftr-wot.blogspot.cz/2013/02/czechoslovak-tree-part-5-premiumssummary.html (English)
http://www.playzone.cz/clanky/wot-ceskoslovenska-technika-aneb-tanky-naseho-puvodu-1-dil (Czech)
http://forum.valka.cz/index.php/f/500381 (English/Czech)
http://henk.fox3000.com/38t.htm (English)
Thanks for your attention!
P.S. I'd appreciate if Moppy could put it into the original post, something in the lines of "My concept" and "Ikarases' concept". I don't want to start another thread, as the discussion would get cluttered and all the people who were interested are probably reading this post anyway
My lord, now THAT is gorgeous. Really interesting layout with the competing companies, I love it!
I will put it in the original post. But I'd rather mark it as "current design" - credits to the Ikarases, rather than "other suggestion", considering the info and creative layout out classes anything I've made so far. Bravo, simply bravo.
I'll just clean it up a bit for you, this deserves to shine. :happy:
My lord, now THAT is gorgeous. Really interesting layout with the competing companies, I love it!
It came to me as the best idea. This isn't WoT, so you need to get it right chronologically, and that went nicely in-line with the "evolution" idea. I can even add one of the three Škoda tankettes (Tančík vz. 33 was made by ČKD), but I guess they are redundant for the tree anyway. Player already has access to LT. vz. 35 and Š-II, let alone those tankettes would be useless against armor (MGs only) and Tančík vz. 33's armor was able to be pierced even by regular firearms at the time from what I've read
Great job on making it look better. Looks much more representative now
And don't thank me, thank my nationality
The only reason to add an early redundant type is if they had many in use at start of the game. You may not wish to produce them, but they still should be on the tree.
This now seems better developed than the German Tank Tech Tree.
Škoda tankettes were never mass-produced nor imported, though they weren't very far from that. Aside from the Tančík vz. 34, only older armored vehicles (not in the tree) were OA vz. 27 and OA vz. 30 (OA = obrněný automobil = armored car). Aside from these, everything that was available in numbers higher than one is in the tree already. I might add them later on as some stand-alone vehicles if needed.
It's three months old at the very least. I'm sure guys from Paradox made some more work on it already. They don't have any Czechoslovakian derivates in there though :huh:
And don't thank me, thank my nationality
Hell Yeah!
IKR?
I understand that the devs want to "stream line" various aspects of the game (which IS needed). However, this does not mean that tank trees should be small. They already did technology a favor by not having the tedious mechanic of 4 research lines for one tank type. (gun, armour, reliability, engine). This system with historical types is ALOT more immersive and decision critical.
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And from one of the Devs posting there won't be in the base game. I plan on working on/with others on Historic Tanks mod(s). I think there will be a full German Tank development including the Czech models.
I've found out I lack Neubaufahrzeug in the German HT branch. It's definitely newer and has better armament than Grosstraktor, which would rather fit as a starting point for a separate branch. I'm not German though, I know only what English Wikipedia tells me
Then I wonder how are they going to represent Hetzers, Marders or Grilles amongst other vehicles.
Not?
Neubaufahrzeug and Grosstraktor are different names for the same thing. Grosstraktor was the project name for heavy tank development.
Not?
That's a rather... unsatisfactionary solution :wacko:
There you go; I told you I'm not German!
Similar to how the USSR (and now Russia) has two major design bureaus. Unfortunately it doesn't have any heavy tanks, which would've probably been developed in Czechoslovakia had it existed beyond 1939, and certainly a player of Czech should have the option to develop heavy tanks. I'm imagining that the names of tanks are flavor, and therefore the structure of all vehicle trees would be generic across all countries. This is not to say that all countries tanks should be identical, but their characteristics should come from the player (or AI's) R&D.
It would be nice if the countries which had their tank development interrupted by occupation (Czechoslovakia, France, Poland, etc) had invented tanks which had a national character.
Nope, they aren't. NbFz is a development of Grosstraktor, but it should be classified as heavy tank, while Grosstraktor was a medium tank project. The difference between them could be comparable to the duo VK3001(H) & VK3601(H).
Also, prototypes of Grosstraktor was made ca. 1930, while NbFz was made in 1934/1935, so they can't be the same tank.
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From www.achtungpanzer.com
Yes, there was also a Pre-Nazi version of a Grosstraktor project. The image used in the German Tank Tree is a Neubaufahrzeug version and I had read that the project title was Grosstraktor ('Great tractor' closest translation). So with your posting I looked it up. Grosstraktor seems to be used for many different tanks all part of an ongoing project of 'heavy' or large tanks. Heavy and large are relative terms that change overtime. Neubaufahrzeug would be the most correct name, but if the Devs think Grosstraktor is best for the average player and is still generally correct I am ok with that. Unlike the Pz IV & Pz VI they were never put into production. Also some of the early Grosstraktor prototypes had 2 turrets and I would not class that as a medium tank (unless there was a concurrently developed tank much heavier).
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/leichte-traktor-grosstraktor-i-ii-iii-neubaufahrzeug-pzkpfw-v-vi.htm
Yes, there was also a Pre-Nazi version of a Grosstraktor project. The image used in the German Tank Tree is a Neubaufahrzeug version and I had read that the project title was Grosstraktor ('Great tractor' closest translation). So with your posting I looked it up. Grosstraktor seems to be used for many different tanks all part of an ongoing project of 'heavy' or large tanks. Heavy and large are relative terms that change overtime. Neubaufahrzeug would be the most correct name, but if the Devs think Grosstraktor is best for the average player and is still generally correct I am ok with that. Unlike the Pz IV & Pz VI they were never put into production. Also some of the early Grosstraktor prototypes had 2 turrets and I would not class that as a medium tank (unless there was a concurrently developed tank much heavier).