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Advice on reforming Norse?

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el caballerion

el caballerion

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Jun 3, 2013
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I'm currently in control of most of Sweden and Norway, and have three of the Viking holy counties in my possession (I do not have the county in Holland or the county in Germany, and these may be impossible to get as they are ruled by allied Karlings).

My Moral Authority is between 33 and 38%, but this is due to perks from capturing single counties in Scotland. Unfortunately, the majority of Irish/Welsh counties are allied with European superpowers, so I cant just attack them all.

Is there any easy way that I can reform Norse before my King dies and everything goes to hell due to Gavelkind? Also, if Norse is reformed, will it decrease the amount of Norse leader conversions? Right now, I'm trying to make a Norse Scotland to split from me, but I'm afraid that the minute I do it, the ruler will just go Catholic on me.
 
I was in a similar situation when I reformed the faith, and I got MA over the top by continuous raiding and burning down churches. You get one point for each church burned during a raid, not to mention you get a bunch of cash and prestige for it.

Regarding Norse Scotland, I don't know if the other faiths can flip a reformed Norse ruler. I've never seen at at least, so you should be fine.
 
A trick to keep your multiple kingdoms together even under gavelkind with multiple sons is to only have a single county to your name. In my latest 2.1.6 game I only held the county of Middlesex and was able to keep the kingdoms of England and Denmark united that way. This is because you cannot have landless Kings and since you only have one county to your name, the kingdoms won't split.

For authority you can just go raiding and looting temples, also build temples once you're very close to the required number. Try conquer weak single counties too... you can safely ignore their allies since you can mobilise your army extremely rapidly with your boats. Siege their single county before anyone has any chance to respond - netting you 100% warscore. If it's still early in the game, you should know that mainland european powers will be useless at shipping their troops across the channel since they'll have no boats or only very few. I assume you also have plenty of room for retinues if you have two kingdoms under your belt, try to spend points into Military Organisation the second you can (the extra cost for being ahead is well worth it) and get loads of Skirmish retinues since they're good at assaulting holdings and provide large numbers.

Once Norse reforms it's like any other religion... leaders will stick to their religion as much as possible. Catholics will not be able to send their chaplains to try and convert the King anymore.
 
To get your MA higher, one thing you can do is to raid the christain temples, which will increase your MA by 1% per temple.
ANother thing you can do is to help your allies in religions wars or (if I remember correctly) you can join their wars and I think this will also increase your MA. Don't forget, you need to have 750 peity as well...
 
Woopzilla said:
A trick to keep your multiple kingdoms together even under gavelkind with multiple sons is to only have a single county to your name. In my latest 2.1.6 game I only held the county of Middlesex and was able to keep the kingdoms of England and Denmark united that way. This is because you cannot have landless Kings and since you only have one county to your name, the kingdoms won't split.

For authority you can just go raiding and looting temples, also build temples once you're very close to the required number. Try conquer weak single counties too... you can safely ignore their allies since you can mobilise your army extremely rapidly with your boats. Siege their single county before anyone has any chance to respond - netting you 100% warscore. If it's still early in the game, you should know that mainland european powers will be useless at shipping their troops across the channel since they'll have no boats or only very few. I assume you also have plenty of room for retinues if you have two kingdoms under your belt, try to spend points into Military Organisation the second you can (the extra cost for being ahead is well worth it) and get loads of Skirmish retinues since they're good at assaulting holdings and provide large numbers.

Once Norse reforms it's like any other religion... leaders will stick to their religion as much as possible. Catholics will not be able to send their chaplains to try and convert the King anymore.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice! I had no idea I get points for raiding churches!

Question: How many points do I get for raiding churches and how many points do I get for building temples?
 
el caballerion said:
Thanks for the advice! I had no idea I get points for raiding churches!

Question: How many points do I get for raiding churches and how many points do I get for building temples?
Click to expand...

I believe it's 1% each. But the bonus lasts quite a long time, so if you combine that with all other methods for a sustained period then getting 50% won't be that hard anymore. Remember that you need to fully loot the temple (so that the subholding icon in the county looks like it's burning) which is basically like a normal siege but with raiders.

I usually just assault-siege things rapidly, so getting a large retinue early is very powerful since holdings will have terrible defences and garrisons early on. If you can get 8k troops, then you're golden and will make, literally, boat loads of money on the side.
 
Woopzilla said:
I believe it's 1% each. But the bonus lasts quite a long time, so if you combine that with all other methods for a sustained period then getting 50% won't be that hard anymore. Remember that you need to fully loot the temple (so that the subholding icon in the county looks like it's burning) which is basically like a normal siege but with raiders.
Click to expand...

Cool. To Ireland, I go!
 
Be warned, however, that just because you reform the faith does not automatically mean you can end gavelkind. You first have to change succession laws (which likely requires changing crown authority). The problem I'm having in my current game is that, despite having reformed the Norse, I cannot escape gavelkind because I have been unable to eliminate negative opinions, especially after raising crown authority.

As a result, you should be prepared for at least one or two additional generations of gavelkind before really being able to change to something better.
 
andb52 said:
Be warned, however, that just because you reform the faith does not automatically mean you can end gavelkind. You first have to change succession laws (which likely requires changing crown authority). The problem I'm having in my current game is that, despite having reformed the Norse, I cannot escape gavelkind because I have been unable to eliminate negative opinions, especially after raising crown authority.

As a result, you should be prepared for at least one or two additional generations of gavelkind before really being able to change to something better.
Click to expand...

No doubt. Thanks for the advice. I'm just looking forward to ending Christianity in Europe. The Atheist in me will revel in it, though I do wish I could customize the NORSE religious name to MILITANT ATHEISM. lol
 
Crap. It's 950 and my MA has been fluctuating between 31 and 41, even though I have 3 holy sites AND like +13 points of church looting. The problem is that England was allowed to form, and has been Holy warring Jylland (which took over Merica). Every time they lose a holy war, it's a -3 impact on MA. I have -21 for 'LOST HOLY WARS' all because of weak Jylland!!

I'm going to restart the game now that I know about temple looting. My strategy will be to destroy Wessex (after becoming King of Svitjod), and eventually Scotland. With no major Christian powers in Britannia to start holy wars, it should be easy to reform.
 
el caballerion said:
Crap. It's 950 and my MA has been fluctuating between 31 and 41, even though I have 3 holy sites AND like +13 points of church looting. The problem is that England was allowed to form, and has been Holy warring Jylland (which took over Merica). Every time they lose a holy war, it's a -3 impact on MA. I have -21 for 'LOST HOLY WARS' all because of weak Jylland!!

I'm going to restart the game now that I know about temple looting. My strategy will be to destroy Wessex (after becoming King of Svitjod), and eventually Scotland. With no major Christian powers in Britannia to start holy wars, it should be easy to reform.
Click to expand...

Another thing you may want to consider is (probs as Hæsteinn) Preparing an invasion for Frisia on France/Lotharingia. Whoever owns the Norse Holy site in 867. (can't remember). If you hire 1 or 2 merc bands, along with your invasion force, you can just walk there (or send your full boat load by sea and walk the rest) and siege enough of Frisia to win before they can muster their armies properly.

That way you start with the hardest holy site you can get without triggering Crusades. Then choose which Norse power to waste your once-in-a-lifetime subjugation on. Go for whoever is the biggest, that you can still beat. You should now have 2 holy sites, and some decent MA for winning the invasion.

Then do a county conquest (hopefully you can) for a county in one of the two Norse Kingdoms you didn't subjugate (my suggestion is to use the first subjugation on Sviþjod, then county conquest somewhere in de jure Norway). Now change your capital to the county you just conquested, and move over any event troops and retinues you have to there. (This assumes you resisted the urge to stick your capital in holland or something. Although I think Brugge is where you want your capital eventually, but it's owned by France, wheras the Holy site is owned by Lotharingia)

Take the "Become King of X" amibition for the Kingdom you just took one county in. Now you get your subjugation CB back for that whole de jure Kingdom. Use it. All of it.

Now you have 3 holy sites. You are probably just missing Denmark's at this point, unless a different order was more convenient for you. Now there are a few ways to proceed.
- Fabricate a claim for the last (not counting central Germany) Norse Holy site
- Cause succession while having only one county or one heir to avoid Gavelkind. (just turn raiding on with a tiny levy led by Hæsteinn and smash him into enemy stacks until he dies, wait, or fail a vassal imprisonment and surrender)

Once you get the 4th Norse holy site, you base MA is 40%. You should be able to go raiding and pick off some celtic minors to get the rest needed to reform.

Once you reform, I would highly suggest either giving away some of your Scandinavian land (until you have <40 holdings) and preparing an invasion for the other half of frisia (from france) or subjugating the third Norse kingdom, and conquesting for half of Finland to form Scandinavia
 
el caballerion said:
Crap. It's 950 and my MA has been fluctuating between 31 and 41, even though I have 3 holy sites AND like +13 points of church looting. The problem is that England was allowed to form, and has been Holy warring Jylland (which took over Merica). Every time they lose a holy war, it's a -3 impact on MA. I have -21 for 'LOST HOLY WARS' all because of weak Jylland!!

I'm going to restart the game now that I know about temple looting. My strategy will be to destroy Wessex (after becoming King of Svitjod), and eventually Scotland. With no major Christian powers in Britannia to start holy wars, it should be easy to reform.
Click to expand...
As said above, you can probably join the holy wars and aid the defender. Alternately, you can just turn on raiding and destroy the armies of their attackers without joining the holy war, allowing even weak Jylland to win.
 
Thanks for the advice guys!

Question... do I get the positive modifier for county conquests ONLY if those territories are non-pagan? For example, can I use that CB to attack pagan sites in Finland, to bring up that modifier?

Also, does that CB (and positive modifier) work for norse counties too?
 
el caballerion said:
Thanks for the advice guys!

Question... do I get the positive modifier for county conquests ONLY if those territories are non-pagan? For example, can I use that CB to attack pagan sites in Finland, to bring up that modifier?

Also, does that CB (and positive modifier) work for norse counties too?
Click to expand...

Yes you can attack Suomenusko and other pagans for the bonus. You do not get it for attacking your fellow Norse, though.
 
Cybele said:
Yes you can attack Suomenusko and other pagans for the bonus. You do not get it for attacking your fellow Norse, though.
Click to expand...

Try to find a series of counties you can use to cut a line through Finland and into Perm. If you can keep firing off one county conquest after another, after 5 years you can just walk your army back and start on the same rulers again.

You also might want to grab the entire duchy of Mecklenburg from northern Pomerania, as the Norse holy order can spawn there any time after 920.
 
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