Historical and Useful Super Battleships

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Which is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the point being made. The exact same thing could have been said of any other battleship, such as the Iowa classes, the George the V, the Bismarcks, and so on. The point being made is NOT that they should be the king of the seas, the point being made is that they are represented in a historically unrealistic manner, especially when compared to their smaller cousins (the BBs) that they were, in most cases, outright better than because they had more firepower, more armor, and essentially the same speed.
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Making them better and faster still doesn´t change the fact that they were worse than carriers in a strategical sense and white elephants just like Keynes said.

While it´s cool that you SHOULD be able to build better stuff than the Yamato, if it´s POINTLESS to build better stuff then the Yamato... no one will do it in game except for lulz. And it SHOULD be pointless from a game POV, at least versus anything that still has carriers afloat.

Only nation who really could build more extra-heavy battleships was the US, and while it´s cool to have a 100000 ton ship, you can argue that cheaper stuff could do exactly the same. One thing that would be cool would be to design your own ship class.
 
Ha ha, gotta love even vague spoiler hints. Models of ships, that sounds intriguing. I wonder if this opens the door to the American AA cruisers.

I don't have any knowledge of the game beyond the DDs and posts around here. I'm extrapolating from previous evidence they've presented. I could very well be wrong, and instead podcat has cut a deal with My Little Pony to have sparkly-pony based capital ships. My Little Pony: Blitzkrieg is Magic!

Why can't we just do it the way this is often done: by tonnage and purpose. For example, the modern definition of super carrier is dependent upon tonnage. Thus, for example, any ship above 60k or 70k tons would be a SHBB. The reason why we SHOULD differentiate between SHBBs and normal BBs is because many of these nations were fielding them (or planning to field them) along side their conventional BBs. That is also the same reason can't say: anything post 194x year now counts as a SHBB. They were designed alongside modern BBs to serve as upscaled force multipliers, and thus fit into a category of their own.

Because the trend in battleship design favored larger ships over time. With the exception of the Lion and Alsace classes, everyone else who was interested in battleships were interested in going bigger. With no treaty limits and no end to production in Germany, Japan, the United States, and the Soviet Union, the most technologically advanced BBs for all of these countries by 1944 would have either met Yamato's size or have been considerably larger and better armed. Not to mention that H-44, Montana, and Sovetsky Soyuz would all have been at least marginally faster than Yamato.

So, there isn't really a need for a SHBB ship type if the timeline for battleships gets extended, because Yamato's specs would have become the norm or even a bit under par among battleships built by 1944.

Lion and Alsace would be more or less battlecruisers in a world where Montana, H-44, and Yamato are the pride of the USN, Kriegsmarine, and IJN.

The best thing is that this general fits for almost ANY SHBB that was historically being imagined. Even the Tillman classes designed in the 20s, long before most nations started planning their own SHBBs, would fit under this definition.

But why have a SHBB unit at all if ships continue to get larger, have heavier armament, and get faster over time?

I don't see the problem. Weight is not an issue since we are only classing above a certain weight (as we do with SCVs). Furthermore, for things like guns we can just use tech levels, which WOULD accurately reflect what they were capable of at the time.

So why have a SHBB unit at all if tech levels will take care of it?

The same way that if the Treaty of Versailles hadn't existed Germany probably would have built up a substantially larger conventional surface fleet with BBs and CVs more comparable to the German Empire's Dreadnought Fleet that was challenged in size and power only by the RN? Treaties matter and affect how history unfold. They also affected ship building significantly.

Of course they had an effect. That's why I'm pointing out that the Washington Naval Treaty and the London Naval Treaty ensured that, while larger battleships could have been designed and built from 1925-1936, they weren't. This resulted in a generation of warships that were smaller, less armored, and less well armed than any of the signatories could have actually built.

Except they aren't logical. It is completely illogical that one kind of ship magically can't increase the amount of armor or its engines - only its guns. Especially when every other ship in the game can. Besides, why should we allow this "tech skipping"? We don't allow anyone to build OP tanks or infantry that get made obsolete over time. SHBBs were only better than BBs in the first place because they were bigger, leaving space for more engines, more guns, and more armor. That we magically can't improve upon them by applying new techs and new designs that improve efficiency and add even more is absurd. In that sense it both spits in the face of balance and in the face of historicity.

SHBB can't increase its main armament. It can upgrade the following items: AA, RADAR, Fire control doctrine, command decision doctrine, ORG, and morale.

How is it unbalanced? Other than who starts with the tech in 1936 (which seems historical to me), anyone can grab it quick and try to play catch up. I've invaded Japan as the Soviets using SHBBs in 1945 without too much difficulty.

You say that the implementation of SHBBs isn't historical, while I would say that having a SHBB unit in the first place isn't historical.

The problem is that in many cases SHBB weren't just "different" models. Think about it this way: there's a reason the US built Iowas instead of modernized Tillmans.

I'm not sure we are using the term model in the same way. If you look at the DDs that have screenshots of tanks, you'll see what they call different models. You can upgrade an existing model, like a Panzer III, with better stuff, and you can also unlock new models of tanks, like a Panther. A new model is not a modernized anything. Its an entirely new thing. But we haven't seen a DD about the navy, so who knows what will actually happen.
 
Making them better and faster still doesn´t change the fact that they were worse than carriers in a strategical sense and white elephants just like Keynes said.

While it´s cool that you SHOULD be able to build better stuff than the Yamato, if it´s POINTLESS to build better stuff then the Yamato... no one will do it in game except for lulz. And it SHOULD be pointless from a game POV, at least versus anything that still has carriers afloat.

Only nation who really could build more extra-heavy battleships was the US, and while it´s cool to have a 100000 ton ship, you can argue that cheaper stuff could do exactly the same. One thing that would be cool would be to design your own ship class.
Its pointless to you. But maybe not to people who like ships. Maybe not to someone who wants to play with SAGs instead of CTFs. Advanced light tanks were useless in WWII, why do we let them tech up? Same for super heavy armor. Its because we aren't always trying to exactly replicate WWII when we play. Sometimes we want to try something cool or different.
 
One thing that would be cool would be to design your own ship class.

I like this idea more along the line of another one I saw on this forum where Capital Ships have the EvW build and you can decide which major components you've researched you'll use to build the class which will determine the ships stats and catergory.
 
Again I see the need for an Armour Vs Piercing mechanic for warships.

Considder:-

Yamato Vs Vanguard.

Yamato is clearly the more powerful ship with bigger guns & more armour.

But Vanguard is a 1944 design. In the game, she would paste a 1938 model SHBB.

Is this wrong?

Vanguard may have had 1916 weapons, but she had 1944 fire control.

Now we're back to my old argument about BBs against heavy cruisers. Yes, a bunch of modern (1940s) heavy cruisers would be able to hit a battleship lots of times but the battleship wouldn't suffer any significant damage that would endanger her whilst each hit she scores would do terrible damage to a CA. And this applies to a 1916 Royal Oak just as much as it applies to a 1944 Vanguard.

Yamato Vs Vanguard is exactly the same thing. Just on a slightly larger scale.

The Montanas were not, IMHO, SHBBs. They were the next generation of battleships. They were to be armed with 16" guns just like the Iowas. OK, 12 instead of 9 for more firepower but 16" all the same and, as such, would have been at a significant disadvantage against a Yamato. 16" guns, 16" belt, 6" deck Vs 18.1" guns, 16" belt, 8" deck. It may have been on the dice but Yamato definitely would have had the advantage. (provided, of course, her fire control was up-to date)

Do we need SHBBs?

No.

Do we need a SH ship tech?

Absolutely.

For Japan to Go Large so early meant that in any BB engagement her opponents were in for a very unpleasant surprise. The same is true for Germany. Does a SHAC make sense? If Armour Vs Piercing is introduced, yes it does. The pocket battleships were actually quite deadly when fighting ships in their same weight class.
 
Making them better and faster still doesn´t change the fact that they were worse than carriers in a strategical sense and white elephants just like Keynes said.

While it´s cool that you SHOULD be able to build better stuff than the Yamato, if it´s POINTLESS to build better stuff then the Yamato... no one will do it in game except for lulz. And it SHOULD be pointless from a game POV, at least versus anything that still has carriers afloat.

Only nation who really could build more extra-heavy battleships was the US, and while it´s cool to have a 100000 ton ship, you can argue that cheaper stuff could do exactly the same. One thing that would be cool would be to design your own ship class.

I dont find it pointless to have BB or SHBB:s in game.

Just consider ONE situation:

There has been Big clash between 2 navies, with both having equal amount of carriers. both carrier fleets lost most of its aircrafts in clash. Only other side had BB:s and SHBBs.

Now, there is no more planes, what would happen? :) also ground based planes could wipe out carriers airplanes. Its limited amount of those on board. and more cannot be delivered there instantly behind thousands of km away. I think CV fleet would go to bottom pretty fast from BB/SHBB fire in that case, so they are not worthless at all. If other side has just cruisers and other small ships to protect CV:s and other goes with BB:s.. :)

cant deny that one
 
Yamato's specs would have become the norm or even a bit under par among battleships built by 1944.


with less weight/size you get more with smaller guns, with thinner armor, with smaller engines with less space for secondary and AA guns? i dont see reason in that sentence :/


So why have a SHBB unit at all if tech levels will take care of it?

do you mean current way its made in HOI3? If so, yes, it doesnt give SHBB much options there like any other ships have..


SHBB can't increase its main armament. It can upgrade the following items: AA, RADAR, Fire control doctrine, command decision doctrine, ORG, and morale.


What prevents it from getting bigger guns? i dont follow you here. hell there was 800mm cannon in ww2 on railroad. why not in ships which are much bigger and wider than railroad.


I'm not sure we are using the term model in the same way. If you look at the DDs that have screenshots of tanks, you'll see what they call different models. You can upgrade an existing model, like a Panzer III, with better stuff, and you can also unlock new models of tanks, like a Panther. A new model is not a modernized anything. Its an entirely new thing. But we haven't seen a DD about the navy, so who knows what will actually happen.

Tanks could an would perhaps in some cases use old production lines for some of its parts. and further the war went, the amount increased. Russians used quite similar engine in KV/IS/t34 tanks imo. little changes in amount of diesel injected in engine etc, giving more power and such. (im not totally sure bout T34 engine)
Germans did plan for E series of tanks which would use as many parts in different weight classes as possible, to help with maintenance, production and logistics.
 
BB don't eat as much fuel as a carrier who use alot of aircraft which can be important for nations who don't got lots of it.
If BB somehow get in range of carriers and know their positions they will be destroyed very quickly, much faster than BBs.
 
I dont find it pointless to have BB or SHBB:s in game.

Just consider ONE situation:

There has been Big clash between 2 navies, with both having equal amount of carriers. both carrier fleets lost most of its aircrafts in clash. Only other side had BB:s and SHBBs.

Now, there is no more planes, what would happen? :) also ground based planes could wipe out carriers airplanes. Its limited amount of those on board. and more cannot be delivered there instantly behind thousands of km away. I think CV fleet would go to bottom pretty fast from BB/SHBB fire in that case, so they are not worthless at all. If other side has just cruisers and other small ships to protect CV:s and other goes with BB:s.. :)

cant deny that one

Can't deny that a "CV fleet would go to [the] bottom pretty fast from BB/SHBB fire"

Oh yes I can.

Read-up on the Battle Off Samar.

You'll soon realise that BBs are not the be-all & end-all against CVs.

At least, not against CVs that are escorted by "other small ships".
 
Its pointless to you. But maybe not to people who like ships. Maybe not to someone who wants to play with SAGs instead of CTFs. Advanced light tanks were useless in WWII, why do we let them tech up? Same for super heavy armor. Its because we aren't always trying to exactly replicate WWII when we play. Sometimes we want to try something cool or different.

And who said I DON`T like ships? I always like to squeeze a battelship or twon in my german or british BO.

Doesn´t change EVERYTHING else I said. They were white elephants and building destroyers or escort carriers would have saved MANY more lives that Vanguard, and 4 carriers could have stalled the war for Japan an year, maybe even two, compared to Hotel Yamato and Musashi. Period. Battleships were bad strategic choices for ALL countries.

I´ll say again - it´s not about being against building different SHBB, it´s about being against anyone who will eventually whine about SHBB being useless versus carriers, when they should be in any place not called North Sea or Artic. In other words, 90% of the world.
 
Can't deny that a "CV fleet would go to [the] bottom pretty fast from BB/SHBB fire"

Oh yes I can.

Read-up on the Battle Off Samar.

You'll soon realise that BBs are not the be-all & end-all against CVs.

At least, not against CVs that are escorted by "other small ships".

Was not Japans fire control, radar and aa very bad compared to what US used.
What about US battleship vs Japan carriers, could be a completly different battle.
One carrier, HMS Glorious was sunk by battleships.
 
I don't have any knowledge of the game beyond the DDs and posts around here. I'm extrapolating from previous evidence they've presented. I could very well be wrong, and instead podcat has cut a deal with My Little Pony to have sparkly-pony based capital ships. My Little Pony: Blitzkrieg is Magic!

I think you mean, cut a deal with Hasbro. MLP is a brand, not a company. Also, the only artefact in that fictional universe that can induce a cosmetic effect on objects analogous to "sparkles" is limited in the range at which it can maintain the effect, and is located in a landlocked city state.
Come on, how are you ever going to seduce impress Podcat-sama if you keep acting like you've got Kangaroos loose in the top paddock?*


Back on topic, I think that although SHBB's may have been stupid and obsolete, portraying them properly would definitely improve the game by a considerable amount.
Cool things like SH-battleships, SH-tanks and strategic rockets are an integral part of the experience of playing Axis nations, even though they are showy and inefficient.


*Actual phrase
 
Back on topic, I think that although SHBB's may have been stupid and obsolete, portraying them properly would definitely improve the game by a considerable amount.

Just because the only SHBBs built in reality ended up looking "stupid and obsolete" does not mean that has to be the case in every game.

Their usefulness is entirely up to what kind of navy your opponents have, and if your opponents have thousands of "heavy" carrier borne torpedo/dive bombers + hundreds of submarines as well as great intel, yes SHBBs are not especially useful.

But what if Germany keeps building their Navy up in 1939 following plan Z and aims to defeat the Royal Navy in a Jutland II style engagement in the Northsea...?
Here Carrier aviation have a very limited role due to ground based fighters + weather and wintertime light conditions, well then it could be very useful for UK/Germany to pursuit SHBBs in their arms race.

Or if USA/Japan builds more battleships and only a few supporting smaller Carriers that can mostly carry lighter fighters that can't do much damage to heavier ships?
 
Why they would do that considering it was, well, stupid? Just because it´s cool?

Germany barely could afford building TWO battleships, let alone four, to challenge the massive lead the RN navy, and that would mean taking resources from the ONLY objectivethat mattered - Russia. 4 battleships would NOT allow a Seelowe.

Just because HOI 3 allows to "trololó me build tons of battleships due to practical lulz" doesn´t mean it would be expensive as hell in real life, either. For what gain? German ASW was crap. Even RN subs could put a torpedo or two, not to mention mines.

What you guys are arguing is like arguing why cavalry shouldn´t be useful, since horses ate grass instead of fuel. Let´s build cavalry as Germany! It didn´t have "strategic flaws"...
 
Why they would do that considering it was, well, stupid? Just because it´s cool?

No, but perhaps because it's a game and you are perfectly free to build whatever ships or units you desire too?

Or because the game would be quite boring if all the nations built 100% historical things 100% of the time?

Germany barely could afford building TWO battleships

And wasn't the historical reasons these two Battleships ( +2 more started and 2 BCs ) were built basically because Hitler thought they were cool?




At the other end of the scale you have an AI who never repeats even historical mistakes, and only builds whatever is optimal. Germany always builds submarines instead of a surface fleets, never waste resources on building wunderwaffen, jets or heavy tanks, and never declares war on USA. Is that the kind of game you would prefer playing?
 
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Was not Japans fire control, radar and aa very bad compared to what US used.
What about US battleship vs Japan carriers, could be a completly different battle.
One carrier, HMS Glorious was sunk by battleships.

Yes. Japan's fire control was inferior to US & Britain.

The loss of Glorious was stupid. She was low on fuel so had to take a shortcut to get home, was intercepted by two faster battlecruisers (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) & paid the price.

And of course it would have been a completely different battle off Samar if it had been US battleships & Japanese carriers.

It would also have been completely different if Kurita had lead with his destroyers instead of his cruisers.

I think the point is that SHBBs were designed to do one thing. Kill BBs. The Yamatos would have been very good at taking out large heavily armed warships. Their radar, by the time of Samar, was adequate for decent gun ranging and any large targets that stood to fight would have suffered terribly. This scenario never happened which is why the SHBB is seen as such a waste of resources. The battle they were designed to win simply never happened.

If, for example, it had been a Yamato at Guadalcanal instead of the Kirishima (one of the very few BB vs BB battles in the Pacific) things would have gone very badly for both the South Dakota & Washington and everybody would be a fan. As it happened, Kirishima with 14" main armament was out gunned by Washington's 16" main armament and, taking on a more heavily armed & armoured ship suffered the consequences. The consequences any battleship in the world (including the Iowas) would have suffered upon meeting Yamato or Musashi if they entered a gun duel.
 
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with less weight/size you get more with smaller guns, with thinner armor, with smaller engines with less space for secondary and AA guns? i dont see reason in that sentence :/

I'm not sure what's difficult to understand. Higher tech = larger, better armed, and better armored ships. There does not need to be a SHBB unit. BBs built with higher techs would have the same armament, armor, and firepower as Yamato. And I'm not just making that up. Go look up the specs on the Monatana class, the H-44 class, the Sovetsky Soyuz class, and the AC-150 class. These would have been standard battleships had battleship development continued. There doesn't need to be a SHBB unit; Yamato is what a BB looks like at higher tech levels. And anyone with the resources and design capability can build something like it.

If the Soviets designed and tried to build more than one, it's not exactly rocket science.

do you mean current way its made in HOI3? If so, yes, it doesnt give SHBB much options there like any other ships have..

I mean at all. In terms of an HOI game, had the major powers continued to pursue higher tech BBs like their plans indicated, then higher tech levels should equal all BBs being built to Yamato or bigger specifications.

There doesn't need to be a SHBB unit at all. It's just a higher tech battleship. I'm not sure why this particular concept is difficult to understand. With better tech modelling and ship models that mimic the DD on tanks and planes, you'd just have the higher tech BBs having the guns, displacement, armor, and engines of Montana, Yamato, H-44, and so on. With those ships in the water, the need for smaller battleships would be nil.

What prevents it from getting bigger guns? i dont follow you here. hell there was 800mm cannon in ww2 on railroad. why not in ships which are much bigger and wider than railroad.

I thought you were talking about in HOI3. In HOI3, main armament on all ships cannot be upgraded once a ship begins construction. And SHBBs cannot upgrade main armament at all.

Tanks could an would perhaps in some cases use old production lines for some of its parts. and further the war went, the amount increased. Russians used quite similar engine in KV/IS/t34 tanks imo. little changes in amount of diesel injected in engine etc, giving more power and such. (im not totally sure bout T34 engine)
Germans did plan for E series of tanks which would use as many parts in different weight classes as possible, to help with maintenance, production and logistics.

Again, we're not using the term in the same way. I'm using it the way podcat uses it in DDs when talking about tanks and planes. If you haven't read the DDs, I suggest you go and do so. The production one is very informative.
 
The reason why super heavy BB tech exists is to give Japan the option to have Yamato ready by 1941. It´s a tech tree design choice with THAT purpose only. Also, while you could argue that building bigger ships COULD be an option, the issue still remains, it´s too many eggs in one basket that a mine or torpedo could disable.

So I don´t necessarily agree that the natural path was to have 100000 ton ships as the standard. If it wasn´t planes, it would be torpedoes or missiles rendering very big battleships obsolete. No matter which angle you look at it, they would be stupid investments.
 
The reason why super heavy BB tech exists is to give Japan the option to have Yamato ready by 1941. It´s a tech tree design choice with THAT purpose only. Also, while you could argue that building bigger ships COULD be an option, the issue still remains, it´s too many eggs in one basket that a mine or torpedo could disable.

So I don´t necessarily agree that the natural path was to have 100000 ton ships as the standard. If it wasn´t planes, it would be torpedoes or missiles rendering very big battleships obsolete. No matter which angle you look at it, they would be stupid investments.

All Naval powers had very serious plans to build heavier or more Battleships then they did historically.

In Germany keels were laid for two H39-class ( 56,000 ton ) Battleships, and they had ordered 4 more.
In USA 5 Montana class ( 65,000 ton ) Battleships were ordered and the only reason construction did not start was due to shortage of available slipways.
In UK keels were laid down for two Lion class Battleships ( heavier then King George V-class ) and they had ordered 4 more.
In Japan 3 more Yamato class was planned and two of them so far along one was completed as a carrier and the other 30% complete when cancelled.
In France they had plans to build the 4 Alsace-class Battleships starting 1941, an enlarged version of the Richelieu class.


Many of these ships would probably have been completed during the war or to far in progress to cancel if the war had started 1-2 years later ( totally possible in HoI sandbox ), or if the earlier Carrier successes by chance or choice had not happened ( crippling of Bismarck, Taranto raid & Pearl Harbor raid ).


It is also wrong to say that building a 100k ton Battleship would never happen because of "putting all the eggs in one basket", when the actual historical development turned into building even more vulnerable 100k ton Carriers. If a lucky submarine torpedo can disable a 100k ton Battleship an equally lucky torpedo can sink a 100k ton Carrier ( and never mind that the Yamatos took 10+ torpedoes to be sunk despite useless Japanese damage control ).


So disagree however much you want, but even bigger Battleships was the natural path that had already historically been started before the war broke out, by all naval powers.
 
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