Chaplains not priest. Is this historical or not?

I'm pretty sure you can't have a landed character (who is not a bishop) as a Chaplain. However, you can have unlanded characters as Chaplains. You seem to be confusing the two Holy Orders of the Presbyterate (Priests) and the Episcopate (Bishops). Though at this point, clerical celibacy was pretty much a discipline in the West, plenty of priests were married. It was the bishops who were not supposed to be married at all (or if they were, should be widowed before their ordination), though there were plenty who broke this rule also (eg Thomas Cardinal Wolsey). Let's say you are an Irish Duke or Petty King and you have a brother who is married with fifteen kids. There would be nothing against canon law that would prevent him from taking an oath and being ordained into the Presbyterate. It would however prevent him from getting re-married after an annulment/divorce/widowed.

I don't understand your third confusion on having an Anti-Pope or Pope as a vassal. Just because someone has a high level office does not mean they are entitled to be a Chaplain. Chaplains were personal spiritual counsellors for the Nobility. For example, Henry VIII appointed a mere priest, Thomas Cramner as his personal Chaplain rather than whoever the hell was the Archbishop of Canterbury at the time.

Even when playing as Orthodoxy, you are allowed to appoint unlanded characters as Chaplains. I believe it is once you are at a King or above level that you have to have landed bishops since you are apppointing National Patriarchs who needs to be a bishop.

LumberKing said:

You seem to be confusing the two Holy Orders of the Presbyterate (Priests) and the Episcopate (Bishops). Though at this point, clerical celibacy was pretty much a discipline in the West, plenty of priests were married.

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There also was the practice of Paramours, which were essentially non-married Monogamous relationships

LumberKing said:

Even when playing as Orthodoxy, you are allowed to appoint unlanded characters as Chaplains. I believe it is once you are at a King or above level that you have to have landed bishops since you are apppointing National Patriarchs who needs to be a bishop.

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No, I'm pretty sure that the Ecclesiarch (I believe that's what they're called) always has to be a landed bishop. Unless they changed it recently.

fanoI said:

So it is possible before the council that forced the priests to be not married? But if I understood well when I select them as chaplain is as if I'm force them to become priest? As in "The Sons of Abraham DLC" they add the possibility to force men and women to take votes could have sense to force them to be Bishops or at least priests?

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There was no council that really forced priests to be not married, however there was a council which canonized the discipline (this is different from a doctrine or a dogma) of clerical celibacy in the West during Trent I believe (way outside the games timeframe). When you're assigning a Chaplain, the game assumes that the Chaplain is already a priest. Although the game really could use a fix on this regard and make it so that people with only the Learning Education can become Chaplains.

fanoI said:

The thing of having the Pope as vassal and do not make it Chaplain seems illogical to me, maybe a some sort of penalty as the Pope is offended? I don't know o

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How come? The Pope is a busy man, unless ordered to, he doesn't have the time to deal with a family of one man and the whole Western Church at the same time. Having a penalty with the Pope because you didn't make him Chaplain is just silly, since being a Chaplain neither demotes nor promotes one's position in the Church hierarchy. Granted, a Chaplain is a member of the King's Council, but as Pope, he is already a religious leader and as such does not need to be in the King's Council to have the ear of the King.

fanoI said:

The thing of having the Pope as vassal and do not make it Chaplain seems illogical to me, maybe a some sort of penalty as the Pope is offended? I don't know o

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Why should the pope be offended? I don't think he absoluty want to be your personal servant priest.

In game, only temple vassals and courtiers can be court chaplain (for catholics). The allowance for courtiers would be in part so counts with no temple holding aren't screwed (and in part because court chaplains didn't need to be bishops).

Learning education doesn't necessarily make one a priest (it just makes you a scholar), nor the opposite (bishops with a past martial or administrative history were hardly unheard of) so that restriction isn't really wise (just blame that learning apparently makes you good at converting the heathens even if you showed no will for it).

Clerical celibacy was among the Gregorian reforms and the first and second Lateran councils both included rulings against it (the second, in 1139, making all clerical marriages invalid). Technically, you still could be married and made a priest - your marriage just became invalid when you did, but practice in the catholic world was that celibacy was expected - married people were not considered for the priesthood. (the current form was actually set in 1917, but (obviously) has been the convention for centuries.

Trent did consider celibacy (as protestants and reformed were abandoning it, and blaming it for clerical misconduct (some arguments resound through the ages...) but only confirmed the rulings of the previous councils.

Arguably catholic clergy could be allowed to marry pre 1069, but I think Paradox views it as unnecessary messiness - it just creates dynasties with no real claims, and such are of no real use - you can just spawn random courtiers after all. (After all, mayors don't marry and nobody suggests they should be celibate)

LumberKing said:

For example, Henry VIII appointed a mere priest, Thomas Cramner as his personal Chaplain rather than whoever the hell was the Archbishop of Canterbury at the time.

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And then Henry made Cranmer Archbishop of Canterbury after the previous Archbishop had died.

Also I think the pope really has other things to care for than be your personal chaplain. I think he'd find it more offending that he is actually a vassal of yours, at least you had the decency to not degrade him to a mere chaplain. After all the pope claims supremacy over ALL christians (and catholics in particular).

Shadrol said:

Also I think the pope really has other things to care for than be your personal chaplain. I think he'd find it more offending that he is actually a vassal of yours, at least you had the decency to not degrade him to a mere chaplain. After all the pope claims supremacy over ALL christians (and catholics in particular).

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I think it's funny having Pope lead your armies. Especially if you are a Pagan who managed to vassalize the Pope
Pope leading armies going to pillage catholic villages and cities...

stilgarpl said:

I think it's funny having Pope lead your armies. Especially if you are a Pagan who managed to vassalize the Pope
Pope leading armies going to pillage catholic villages and cities...

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Julius_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sergius_III

And bishops leading armies was very common too.

stilgarpl said:

I think it's funny having Pope lead your armies. Especially if you are a Pagan who managed to vassalize the Pope
Pope leading armies going to pillage catholic villages and cities...

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I think they fixed it by now, but there was a bug that would allow you to make somebody lead your armies even after they left your realm to become an independant ruler somewhere els. I had a game where I vassalized the pope, put him as leader of my army and later gave him independance to reconquer him with a holy war CB (he disliked me for tyranny or some stupid thing), but he remained in charge of my army. And somehow he ended up capturing himself into my prison Maybe I can find a screenshot of that.

Thure said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Julius_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sergius_III

And bishops leading armies was very common too.

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And Luther wasn't really impressed by Julius and his warmongering, just another sign for him that the papacy and the catholic church was going wild.

Shadrol said:

I think they fixed it by now, but there was a bug that would allow you to make somebody lead your armies even after they left your realm to become an independant ruler somewhere els. I had a game where I vassalized the pope, put him as leader of my army and later gave him independance to reconquer him with a holy war CB (he disliked me for tyranny or some stupid thing), but he remained in charge of my army. And somehow he ended up capturing himself into my prison Maybe I can find a screenshot of that.

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Hey, Pope, go conquer yourself!
Hilarious!
(the anti-pope I put on the throne before I converted back to paganism was called "Hilarius II" )

stilgarpl said:

Hey, Pope, go conquer yourself!
Hilarious!
(the anti-pope I put on the throne before I converted back to paganism was called "Hilarius II" )

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Hilarius

He was just happy to be there.

fanoI said:

By the way it could make more historical to add as a condition to be selected as Chaplain to be a Priest or a landed bishop what do you think?

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It was already said here... The game didn't know which of your courtiers is a priest. Everyone could be one. If you make a courtier COurt Chaplain he is a priest.

fanoI said:

Maybe is just me but I don't see as a demotion of him but only has as an other title of honor!
I'm not speaking of make the Pope (or an Anti Pope or the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem) the Court Chaplain of whatever but the Court Chaplain of "The Roman Empire"!

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Kingdom of Heaven seems to be more prestigious

fanoI said:

Yes it could know it with "The Sons of Abraham" the trait priest / monk is added is used when you force a character to take to vows, so to be a Court Chaplain you could need:

1. A character with the "Priest" trait
2. A landed bishop that is, implicitly, a Priest
3. Maybe a member of a holy order? They were monks but probably not priests... I don't think the Gran Master could held mass but I'm unsure...

At least the trait "Priest" would have a use, what do you think could be added in mods?

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Eh... The trait is Monk. And a monk isn't the same as a priest. There is a big difference. There is no priest trait ingame. If you force someone to take to vows they became monks. Not priests.