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djrice247

High Lord of Terra
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Dec 19, 2007
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I was just given the kingdom of Syria as the result of a Crusade. I currently hold ALL holdings and have yet to unpause the game. I don't want another kingdom title in my empire. Can I destroy the title now and not face the negative opinion penalty? (since their are/were no vassals at the time the title is destroyed)
 
Yes, it will only upset the De Jure vassals of Syria, and since you hold all of the holdings, the only person to be upset is you!
 
Is it worth it to play as King instead of Emperor or having only duchy vassals instead of king ones ?
Some people like to play with just one kingdom, allowing all the lands to De Jure drift under that title, but i like to collect kingdom titles, the more the better!
EDIT: Playing as emperor with king vassals can be annoying, i personally try to revoke all kingdoms from my vassals.
 
I always felt like by the time your empire gets to be the size of 2-3 de jure empires, you almost need king vassals just to avoid the annoyance of dealing with 200+ dukes. Sometimes you need all your vassals to like you, and keeping that many vassals happy is totally impossible. Plus, the magic teleporting kingdom levies can be pretty useful. Honestly haven't played any big region conquest games or had king vassals since the last big patch when they added the opinion malus, though, so maybe it's not as easy to keep those king vassals happy anymore.
 
King vassals can work wonders. When you divvy out kingdoms to trusted loyal dynasty members, they will provide lots of troops, and love you and everything is dandy. Basically free mercenaries! Then you die. But never fear, your heir is a competent ruler with a clutch of heirs, everything will continue to be fine! Then the dreaded strong factions popup appears. It is an independence revolt, with 30% of your forces. No big deal. You continue to wage war, but now your vassals don't provide as many troops. Your suspicions are raised. You check the faction screen. SWEET MOTHER OF JESUS EVERYONE HATES YOU! And once one faction rebels, all the others will. Goodbye triple emperor.
 
I always felt like by the time your empire gets to be the size of 2-3 de jure empires, you almost need king vassals just to avoid the annoyance of dealing with 200+ dukes. Sometimes you need all your vassals to like you, and keeping that many vassals happy is totally impossible. Plus, the magic teleporting kingdom levies can be pretty useful. Honestly haven't played any big region conquest games or had king vassals since the last big patch when they added the opinion malus, though, so maybe it's not as easy to keep those king vassals happy anymore.

It's not really any worse than the multiple dukes with the -20 wants kingdom x title you get for hoarding that kingdom title instead. I wouldn't be in a hurry to give out big kingdoms just because the ai loves to marry his king to some queen and combine kingdoms but the smaller or more remote ones I'll hand out if for no other reason than the aforementioned teleporting levies
 
Is there not some penalty for holding multiple kingdom titles? I thought one was just introduced.
 
Is there not some penalty for holding multiple kingdom titles? I thought one was just introduced.

Only if you hold the de jure kingdom titles in an empire with elective succession. As it counts as an elector title, it's -15 per kingdom title.
 
King vassals get a -25 opinion modifier under new patch rules.

I usually stay King level and depending on size have all counts or Dukes that have all of their de jure land. Dukes with all their land generate more levies and more tax. But with retinues levies aren't usually needed the 3/4 of the game. Then I create the king titles after they drift.

If I am an emperor I usually stay with Dukes with all de jure land. And I only hold 1 king title. And don't bother to create the other titles. But I don't play many games at empire level. If your empire is huge you would probably need King vassals. Say if you held all of modern day UK, Spain, and France. It probably would be annoying to that many vassals reporting directly to you.

But say if you are just the empire of Italy, Dukes are fine even counts since there is not that many counties.

So it is kind of relative to size.
 
I've got a game right now as the empire of Carpathia, starting from the 867 start. As everyone knows, yes the Magyars are conquest beasts still, especially if you stay Tengrii. My empire stretches from the Pyrenees to the eastern edge of the map. There is no way I could deal with that many dukes or counts, so I've formed every single kingdom I can once I get all the de jure territory. It's an elective empire, and since I formed both the empire and every kingdom after Hungary after reforming the faith and switching to elective, all the kingdoms are elective too, which I *think* helps keep them calm. I have the occasional issue with a king that just inherited, but only for a little while, because I always train my heirs (plus spares thanks to elective) for diplomacy. I have a slight malus due to being king of Greece as well as the emperor, but otherwise everyone loves me. And at last count I have over 20 king vassals.

Of course, it really helps to make sure to give away all holdings to people of your religion and culture, which is easier for some than others. It's dead-easy for Tengrii thanks to conquest and tribal invasion CBs, but my Norse ruler of the kingdom of Ruthenia in another game that used his once/lifetime subjugation to gain the entire kingdom of Rus got stuck with a lot of wrong culture/religion guys he couldn't get rid of easily. But still, high diplomacy (and later high prestige) rulers can usually keep everyone in line. Especially once you start getting enough retinue that your retinue alone is larger than any individual vassal's levies. Which is why it's probably a good idea to start spamming skirmisher (or longbow if English/Welsh) retinue until you have a large enough cap to replace them with 10 - 15k of something else (unless you are English/Welsh, then just keep them). Faction strength and how dangerous a faction is depends a lot on the combined numbers of your troops, not the actual strength of the troops. Cheaper retinue cap troops = more bodies = less faction strength.
 
I've got a game right now as the empire of Carpathia, starting from the 867 start. As everyone knows, yes the Magyars are conquest beasts still, especially if you stay Tengrii. My empire stretches from the Pyrenees to the eastern edge of the map. There is no way I could deal with that many dukes or counts, so I've formed every single kingdom I can once I get all the de jure territory. It's an elective empire, and since I formed both the empire and every kingdom after Hungary after reforming the faith and switching to elective, all the kingdoms are elective too, which I *think* helps keep them calm. I have the occasional issue with a king that just inherited, but only for a little while, because I always train my heirs (plus spares thanks to elective) for diplomacy. I have a slight malus due to being king of Greece as well as the emperor, but otherwise everyone loves me. And at last count I have over 20 king vassals.

Of course, it really helps to make sure to give away all holdings to people of your religion and culture, which is easier for some than others. It's dead-easy for Tengrii thanks to conquest and tribal invasion CBs, but my Norse ruler of the kingdom of Ruthenia in another game that used his once/lifetime subjugation to gain the entire kingdom of Rus got stuck with a lot of wrong culture/religion guys he couldn't get rid of easily. But still, high diplomacy (and later high prestige) rulers can usually keep everyone in line. Especially once you start getting enough retinue that your retinue alone is larger than any individual vassal's levies. Which is why it's probably a good idea to start spamming skirmisher (or longbow if English/Welsh) retinue until you have a large enough cap to replace them with 10 - 15k of something else (unless you are English/Welsh, then just keep them). Faction strength and how dangerous a faction is depends a lot on the combined numbers of your troops, not the actual strength of the troops. Cheaper retinue cap troops = more bodies = less faction strength.

I have over a dozen king vassals in my current game - an empire that stretches from the Atlantic to the Caucasus. I don't even have elective - I use primo and run CA on high, but nobody seems too bothered and as long as you're conquering at a decent speed there's always enough goodies to hand out to keep them kings happy.
 
In my game beside a modded in titular empire title, I hold the kingdom titles of Israel, Syria, and Mesopotamia. The only king vassal I have is the Kohen Gadol, which in my mod is a king level title. All the rest of my vassals are dukes/grand mayors. The reasons I haven't destroyed my king titles are (1): the de jure lands haven't finished drifting into my titular empire, (2): to keep potential factions divided and compartmentalized, and (3): to simulate/roleplay the fact my empire as a federal style structure.
 
Yea all depends on how big you your realm. Can you imagine being Italian emperor and giving out your only 2 Italian king titles. It would make no sense.

If you want to swallow all of Europe up yeah you will need king vassals or go crazy with a million vassals.
 
Yeah, king vassals as a small empire aren't a good idea since they'll have too much power. But, as was said, if you have a truly big empire they're pretty much mandatory. For instance, I have a game going where my Roman Empire rules everything in it's old borders, Germany, Africa, Arabia, British Isles, Persia and Rajastan. Can't imagine trying to manage that with dukes, even the 30+ kings are a handful.
 
Think I am in the minority but I hate holding lots of land. If I am in Spain, maybe all of Spain and Sicily. If I am in Italy. Usually all of Italy and K of Africa. If I'm in Ethiopia I might hold more land because a lot of stinks and I want still want Sicily. If I'm near UK I will take all of it and Brittany. That's a pretty good Duchy. If I'm up north Scandinavia and Denmark.

But after that I don't want to be bothered with vassals and land. Especially once you get 15-25K size in retinues you don't really need anymore troops if you got a good culture. I swallow up land then make it independent and put a dynasty member. Let them manage it. Then fight all their wars for them cause they stink. Once you get 6-8 independent realms for family members I'm usually joining their wars nonstop to keep them in power. They are pretty good allies.

I would lose my mind with more vassals and land.
 
I've never grown that big before, but playing as the ERE, restoring the Empire to its old borders means some serious warring. Now, if only the Pope will spit out the rest of Rome's barons to me...
 
I've never grown that big before, but playing as the ERE, restoring the Empire to its old borders means some serious warring. Now, if only the Pope will spit out the rest of Rome's barons to me...

When I was forming Italy as Catholic I had no problem with the Pope bug. But Genoa and Pisa presented with the pope bug. I thought I was home free. i was like awesome I got all of Rome. Then i was like noooooooooooooooooooo

The thing in common is they were all titular kings. That must have something to do with this bug.