I wanted to reinforce my earlier thread, but seeing that it has gone into obscurity and I've deleted CK2 completely due to the problem I'm about to discuss, I decided to open a new thread to present my points in a more convincing manner.
Faction rebellions have become much easier to deal with in ROI. This is due to a change introduced with 2.1 patch that faction members now act under one temporary title holder rather than as allies of each other. While it is a positive change on its own due to the less tedium and the less micromanagement when dealing with a rebelling faction, it has incurred two massive problems.
Problem number One. The liege lord's vassals cannot be called into war.
I believe there is no need to explain how this would make rebellions much less dangerous. While it would make player's attempt to topple their liege harder, it won't be worth the challenges lost under this restriction because players usually play longer on king or emperor tier, and the lack of challenges on such situation can cause players to lose interests quickly in late games.
I will share one of my experience regarding this subject. In one game I played before ROI, I was playing as an emperor of Francia. I faced a faction rebel which was initially not big. However, other vassals of mine hated my guts and flocked to the rebellion. Soon, I and some of my loyal vassals were facing over 300 holdings of my entire empire. However, I didn't expect to lose. I had massive retinues, over 10k ducats, and the entirety of college of cardinals under my control, enabling me to get popes who favours me.
I enlisted help of Holy Roman Empire, Byzantium Empire, Kingdom of England, Kingdom of Spain, and hired over 20k mercs to fight the rebellion. However, I was unable to defeat them easily because the empire was stretched and I was getting sieged in multiple counties simultaneously. I divided my army into 6 stacks to hunt them down, but they replenished and reinforced faster than me eliminating their stacks/sieging their lands. I stubbornly refused to assassinate the leader, and the rebellion lasted full 20 years until I finally won with all my 10k ducats depleted, 3 Popes squeezed thousands of ducats, treason opinion long been expired.
This was one of the most exciting moments of playing CK2.
With ROI, I faced a similar setting, only worse in the context of situation I was in, because this time my French king was an imbecile who was 0 year old. I can't explain the details like my aforementioned experience because this ended real quick. A faction rose up at something like 400% strength. I hired mercs, killed the rebel doom stack, sieged 2 counties, and the rebel was subdued in less than 1 year.
Wow. Actually, No. No. NOOOOO!
This felt wrong. If dealing with 400% strength faction were this easy, what's it going to be like with 100% rebels? It's like you've got a guarantee to win as long as you have saved enough money to hire massive mercs.
Let's make one thing clear. I actually approve the new system of a rebel leader holding a temporary title because while it might be less challenging, it reduces micromanagement and fighting doomstack is always fun. However, a rebelling faction's inability to call non faction vassals into war has caused massive boredom that I couldn't stand while playing a king or emperor. I failed to see my imbecile 0 year old king being disposed.
Rebels calling vassals, who were not initially members of the rebelling faction, into war is both realistic and a better design choice in game play perspectives.
ROI is still rather new, and everybody could be testing and having fun with it at the moment, but I strongly believe this restriction I've just discussed will become an issue for many players sooner or later.
Paradox should allow rebelling factions to call the liege's vassals into war, so those vassals will become vassals of the rebelling faction leader if they had accepted the call to arms.
Problem number Two. The second problem is that rebelling faction members now act as 'vassals' of the faction leader, only providing tiny portion of their levies into the rebellion.
I actually have not confirmed this because I've already deleted the game, so please correct me if my reasoning were wrong.
From what I can conjecture with the mechanics, rebelling factions now spawn much less threatening army on top of the inability to call other vassals into war, because faction members don't provide 100% of their levies like they did before ROI.
I don't believe it would be necessary to elaborate on this point to prove that how this change will make faction rebellions a much less threat to deal with.
Not only does this give less challenges to players, but it also reduces the overall dynamics of the game. Your dynasties in other kingdoms will easily last longer without your help, and you will face less unexpected events like vassals toppling a liege married to your son in other realms. This will reduce the fun, as I've already experienced multiple times while extensively playing CK2 after ROI.
The conclusion is, that Paradox should make temporary title holders to be able to raise 100% of their temporary vassals' levies to match the faction rebel strength of pre-ROI.
My whole point comes down to this: allow a rebelling faction leader to call the liege's vassals into war. Let a faction leader raise 100% levies of faction members, old and new, when rebelling. Retain the new faction system of a leader holding a temporary title equal to the liege's rank while making these two changes.
Unfortunately, the new faction change has literally took the fun right out of the game and threw it into a grave for me. I can't enjoy the game anymore once I reach a king or emperor tier and secure enough personal holdings and money. Some posters claimed that the ROI faction rebellions are harder to deal with compared to pre-ROI faction rebellions in my previous thread, but now I've explained why that's not the case, I hope I've convinced some of you.
I probably won't play this game as as long as this problem remains although I love CK2 so much. I don't mean to sound sulky or anything, but I'm sincerely just feeling sad that the change has gone unnoticed(at least until now) by the community and it won't be discussed seriously. I wish this thread can start serious discussion on the topic.
Thanks for reading this semi-wall of texts!
Faction rebellions have become much easier to deal with in ROI. This is due to a change introduced with 2.1 patch that faction members now act under one temporary title holder rather than as allies of each other. While it is a positive change on its own due to the less tedium and the less micromanagement when dealing with a rebelling faction, it has incurred two massive problems.
Problem number One. The liege lord's vassals cannot be called into war.
I believe there is no need to explain how this would make rebellions much less dangerous. While it would make player's attempt to topple their liege harder, it won't be worth the challenges lost under this restriction because players usually play longer on king or emperor tier, and the lack of challenges on such situation can cause players to lose interests quickly in late games.
I will share one of my experience regarding this subject. In one game I played before ROI, I was playing as an emperor of Francia. I faced a faction rebel which was initially not big. However, other vassals of mine hated my guts and flocked to the rebellion. Soon, I and some of my loyal vassals were facing over 300 holdings of my entire empire. However, I didn't expect to lose. I had massive retinues, over 10k ducats, and the entirety of college of cardinals under my control, enabling me to get popes who favours me.
I enlisted help of Holy Roman Empire, Byzantium Empire, Kingdom of England, Kingdom of Spain, and hired over 20k mercs to fight the rebellion. However, I was unable to defeat them easily because the empire was stretched and I was getting sieged in multiple counties simultaneously. I divided my army into 6 stacks to hunt them down, but they replenished and reinforced faster than me eliminating their stacks/sieging their lands. I stubbornly refused to assassinate the leader, and the rebellion lasted full 20 years until I finally won with all my 10k ducats depleted, 3 Popes squeezed thousands of ducats, treason opinion long been expired.
This was one of the most exciting moments of playing CK2.
With ROI, I faced a similar setting, only worse in the context of situation I was in, because this time my French king was an imbecile who was 0 year old. I can't explain the details like my aforementioned experience because this ended real quick. A faction rose up at something like 400% strength. I hired mercs, killed the rebel doom stack, sieged 2 counties, and the rebel was subdued in less than 1 year.
Wow. Actually, No. No. NOOOOO!
This felt wrong. If dealing with 400% strength faction were this easy, what's it going to be like with 100% rebels? It's like you've got a guarantee to win as long as you have saved enough money to hire massive mercs.
Let's make one thing clear. I actually approve the new system of a rebel leader holding a temporary title because while it might be less challenging, it reduces micromanagement and fighting doomstack is always fun. However, a rebelling faction's inability to call non faction vassals into war has caused massive boredom that I couldn't stand while playing a king or emperor. I failed to see my imbecile 0 year old king being disposed.
Rebels calling vassals, who were not initially members of the rebelling faction, into war is both realistic and a better design choice in game play perspectives.
ROI is still rather new, and everybody could be testing and having fun with it at the moment, but I strongly believe this restriction I've just discussed will become an issue for many players sooner or later.
Paradox should allow rebelling factions to call the liege's vassals into war, so those vassals will become vassals of the rebelling faction leader if they had accepted the call to arms.
Problem number Two. The second problem is that rebelling faction members now act as 'vassals' of the faction leader, only providing tiny portion of their levies into the rebellion.
I actually have not confirmed this because I've already deleted the game, so please correct me if my reasoning were wrong.
From what I can conjecture with the mechanics, rebelling factions now spawn much less threatening army on top of the inability to call other vassals into war, because faction members don't provide 100% of their levies like they did before ROI.
I don't believe it would be necessary
to elaborate on this point to prove that how this change will make faction rebellions a much less threat to deal with.Not only does this give less challenges to players, but it also reduces the overall dynamics of the game. Your dynasties in other kingdoms will easily last longer without your help, and you will face less unexpected events like vassals toppling a liege married to your son in other realms. This will reduce the fun, as I've already experienced multiple times while extensively playing CK2 after ROI.
The conclusion is, that Paradox should make temporary title holders to be able to raise 100% of their temporary vassals' levies to match the faction rebel strength of pre-ROI.
My whole point comes down to this: allow a rebelling faction leader to call the liege's vassals into war. Let a faction leader raise 100% levies of faction members, old and new, when rebelling. Retain the new faction system of a leader holding a temporary title equal to the liege's rank while making these two changes.
Unfortunately, the new faction change has literally took the fun right out of the game and threw it into a grave for me. I can't enjoy the game anymore once I reach a king or emperor tier and secure enough personal holdings and money. Some posters claimed that the ROI faction rebellions are harder to deal with compared to pre-ROI faction rebellions in my previous thread, but now I've explained why that's not the case, I hope I've convinced some of you.
I probably won't play this game as as long as this problem remains although I love CK2 so much. I don't mean to sound sulky or anything, but I'm sincerely just feeling sad that the change has gone unnoticed(at least until now) by the community and it won't be discussed seriously. I wish this thread can start serious discussion on the topic.
Thanks for reading this semi-wall of texts!
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