English Succession past 1066 invasion wars

MartinSWE · Apr 19, 2014

First of all it´s brilliant that England as historically starts with Agn-Elective under Harold but is it WAD that it remains when I as 'the Bastard' wins the war for the English Throne instead of changing to the laws of the Duchy of Normandy (Agn-Cog Gavelkind) ?

It´s a horrible design decision if it´s supposed to be like this.

LeCHVCK · Apr 19, 2014

In my game as the Bastard it changed to agn-cog Primogenitur but it was pre Roi

SBolshevik · Apr 19, 2014

Well, PDS could potentially make an event for switching to Primo if William wins the war for England.

Isaios · Apr 19, 2014

Doesn't England start out with Primo if you make the title yourself? Medium Authority and Agnatic Primo I think.

Lambert Simnel · Apr 19, 2014

MartinSWE said:
First of all it´s brilliant that England as historically starts with Agn-Elective under Harold but is it WAD that it remains when I as 'the Bastard' wins the war for the English Throne instead of changing to the laws of the Duchy of Normandy (Agn-Cog Gavelkind) ?

It´s a horrible design decision if it´s supposed to be like this.

I agree that I there is something fisshy about post-conquest England, but to play devil's advocate if England's law changed to Agn-Cog Gavelkind then Robert of Normandy would be William I's heir instead of William Rufus, which would also be wrong.

DreadLindwyrm · Apr 19, 2014

Unfortunately there isn't a sensible way to give Normandy to the oldest heir, and England to the second as things stand.

MartinSWE · Apr 19, 2014

Lambert Simnel said:
I agree that I there is something fisshy about post-conquest England, but to play devil's advocate if England's law changed to Agn-Cog Gavelkind then Robert of Normandy would be William I's heir instead of William Rufus, which would also be wrong.

Indeed that is wrong but with Elective in Place there is no way your saxon vassals will let you as a foreign conqueror keep the English Throne and why William would let them have that power is beyond me.

Rationalsanity · Apr 19, 2014

Isaios said:
Doesn't England start out with Primo if you make the title yourself? Medium Authority and Agnatic Primo I think.

That's the default set up if you choose the William the Conqueror start. If you form England yourself it uses whatever Succession law your duchy used plus Autonomous Vassals.

Isaios · Apr 19, 2014

Rationalsanity said:
That's the default set up if you choose the William the Conqueror start. If you form England yourself it uses whatever Succession law your duchy used plus Autonomous Vassals.

You quite sure? I seem to recall having made England with Alfred of Wessex once, and not ending up with what I'd expected. Might be my memories going, but ... I can't really see I'd get it that wrong either

Ruwaard · Apr 20, 2014

MartinSWE said:
Indeed that is wrong but with Elective in Place there is no way your saxon vassals will let you as a foreign conqueror keep the English Throne and why William would let them have that power is beyond me.

Ever looked at the list of landowners before and after 1066? If you're going to be the Norman conqueror, then you have to commit to it.

yezhanquan · Apr 20, 2014

Ruwaard said:
Ever looked at the list of landowners before and after 1066? If you're going to be the Norman conqueror, then you have to commit to it.

Just how extensive was the historical William's revoking of titles from his A-S vassals?

soda7777777 · Apr 20, 2014

DreadLindwyrm said:
Unfortunately there isn't a sensible way to give Normandy to the oldest heir, and England to the second as things stand.

I wonder how one could program that.

kdonovan · Apr 20, 2014

yezhanquan said:
Just how extensive was the historical William's revoking of titles from his A-S vassals?

Initially not so much, of course with Harold and some other key earls dead there was quite a bit to go around to the Normans. However, key the earls of Mercia, Northumbria and Northampton remained Saxon and some married into William's family or made plans to do so. But over the next couple of decades virtually every Saxon magnate was deposed - the harrying of the North in 1069-1070 and Edgar's rebellion, the Danish invasions, etc. gave William plenty of opportunities and incentives to rid himself of the English earls. By the late 1070s it was the ethnically Norman and Breton earls who were rebelling against William.

Jokolytic · Apr 20, 2014

Why did William want to be English King so badly anyway? Why not aim for France or go independent?

yezhanquan · Apr 20, 2014

Probably because he did not have any claims to the French crown. Philip I may be a kid, but there are others in the court who want the crown for themselves. He was also a bastard, although by 1066, he is recognised as the Duke of Normandy (both de jure and de facto, the latter being his life's work thus far). As for independence, he no doubt thought that he cannot stand alone against Philip's court indefinitely. Even as King of England, he still had to pay homage to some extent as a duke of France. Indeed, he was back in Normandy for some time even after the Conquest.

Spelf · Apr 20, 2014

DreadLindwyrm said:
Unfortunately there isn't a sensible way to give Normandy to the oldest heir, and England to the second as things stand.

Except for allowing you to choose which son inherits what. Which would be somewhat realistic (different succession laws would dictate how many titles you could give to each heir, etc)

Isaios · Apr 20, 2014

Jokolytic said:
Why did William want to be English King so badly anyway? Why not aim for France or go independent?

Because England was 1) there, and 2) one of the most centralised and (therefore) wealthy (in taxes to the king at any rate) places around, and 3) he claimed to have been promised the throne by the Confessor (being distantly related).

Also, if you search around for the rumors about his excommunication, you'll find references from Orthodox Christians that indicates that Harold (and England) was Orthodox, and that's why the Pope was all for the war. Near idea.

soda7777777 · Apr 20, 2014

Isaios said:
Because England was 1) there, and 2) one of the most centralised and (therefore) wealthy (in taxes to the king at any rate) places around, and 3) he claimed to have been promised the throne by the Confessor (being distantly related).

Also, if you search around for the rumors about his excommunication, you'll find references from Orthodox Christians that indicates that Harold (and England) was Orthodox, and that's why the Pope was all for the war. Near idea.

I could only find like one thing online about it, and it lacked any sources. I somehow doubt him being orthodox was the case.

Isaios · Apr 20, 2014

soda7777777 said:
I could only find like one thing online about it, and it lacked any sources. I somehow doubt him being orthodox was the case.

Wasn't indicating he WAS, just that the idea's been presented, and that I rather liked it. As a narrative

soda7777777 · Apr 20, 2014

Isaios said:
Wasn't indicating he WAS, just that the idea's been presented, and that I rather liked it. As a narrative

Ah, ok. Some of those websites seemed very... out there...

English Succession past 1066 invasion wars

Lt. General

Sergeant

Something Something Aŋrômainiiuš

Field Marshal

Voter Colonel

Augustus of the North

Lt. General

Field Marshal

Field Marshal

Imperial Vicar of the HRE

Field Marshal

Wer rettet uns den Frieden wenn nicht wir selbst?

Captain

Defensor Innocentis

Field Marshal

Captain

Field Marshal

Wer rettet uns den Frieden wenn nicht wir selbst?

Field Marshal

Wer rettet uns den Frieden wenn nicht wir selbst?