Home Trending Latest threads New posts Developer diaries

Will AI in HOI IV conduct encirclement and flanking maneuvers?

Jump to latest Follow Reply
  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Hearts of Iron IV 45516 Bug Reports 15213 After Action Reports (AAR)
unmerged(162341)

unmerged(162341)

de Vauban
Sep 4, 2009
1.544
12
It is the basic element of reality on the battlefield, which HOI III when set to AI control lacked.
Units set to AI control in HOI III have been operated like in ww1( Frontline push)
In order to encircle, player was forced to micromagage swarms of divisions.
Will there be any development on this field so that AI could try to conduct breakthrough and encirclement of designated part of the Frontline?

EDIT 21:28 proposal:

I had in mind proposal for developer to make this:

Let the player have an option to choose area on the map (provinces)trough which he wishes his HQ AI commanded forces (corps, army,) will go trough and only trough thoses provinces during operation.
In a way to intruduce Streamline movement or "Cannae" effect in game

- Its obligating AI units to go trough exact provinces player wants in special operations. Literally its a funelling of entire large units in special ocasions.

Explanation: Player defines(chooses) path by defining set of provinces on the map he wants , and when an order given to HQ this entire AI driven strategic unit (let say army) will try to use only those provinces to move and fight trough them.It can defend from attacks from other provinces of course. This will enable breaktroughs and encirclement, with all its beauty and risk of modern "Cannae" .

I apologize I used old HOI III map but thats the best I can.--player defines "Streamline" or "Cannae" trajectory that AI conducts, by defining provinces(in yellow on the map)
which will AI controlled unit use for its attack and movement. For fight and move there is no other provinces for this AI controlled unit, they can only pasively defend from attack dirrected from provinces outside this corridor.

hearts_of_iron_iii_385925_1279864132.jpg


In this proposal there is something between manual movement of units from HOI II, but this way entire AI driven command hierarchy will go trough this "passage" that is set by player.This will enable Streamline of units trough this "corridor" and eventual breakthrough and encirclement, after orders given to AI of course.And there is element in it of orders giving from HOI III.

Such manouvre can be cut of course and here is no guarantee AI will be able to conduct it, enemy can even counterattack and encircle players own breakthrough, or breakthrough can stall, fail , but that's the beauty of it I think.

This last as long player needs such behavior of its breaktrough unit,a nd once its over unit AI is again set on "casual"( HOI III alike).

Battle_of_Cannae_215_BC_Initial_Roman_attack.gif
 
Last edited:
Saint-Exupéry said:
It is the basic element of reality on the battlefield, which HOI III when set to AI control lacked.

Units set to AI control in HOI III have been operated like in ww1( Frontline push)

In order to encircle player was forced to micromagage swarms of divisions.

Will there any development on this field so that AI could try to conduct breakthrough and encirclement of designated part of the Frontline?
Click to expand...

Not really, I have seen the AI perform encirclements many times.
In fact, the biggest encirclement I ever pulled off was during a Soviet game where I put the whole front under AI control.

The AI encircled the entirety of Army Group Centre in an enormous pocket in Eastern Poland.
And then, once it had bludgeoned the pocket for a while and reduced it's size, it switched it's attention to Berlin and resumed the attack Westward, leaving a relatively small force to guard the pocket.

It was Courland writ large, and I have never been more impressed with the AI.
 
Right,
AI in HoI3 can do it already, it just needs "enough" fast units to do so and the stance set to "Blitzkrieg". ;)
 
Although occasionally capable of encirclements, the AI usually only encircles one or two provinces at a time and rarely conducts large operations specifically designed to encircle. When more than one province is encircled it's usually the case that the local geography just happens to favor an encirclement, and merely the act of pushing straight into the enemy where they are weak (something the AI is pretty good at) results in cutting some units off. Very rarely do I see anything I would consider a "big" encirclement. Pushing wars are very common especially in Barbarossa but also in the west.

I suspect the game AI isn't taking upcoming geography into account and "planning" an attack at all, rather it's taking each game state into account, pushing where the enemy is weak, trying to shorten it's lines etc. The way that the AI freaks out when partisans deploy behind lines sometimes is pretty funny to watch.
 
Are you guys absolutely sure we are talking about HOI III game?

I am playing this game for years. Of course I have regular infantry armies and panzergroups in a same rank consisting of only tank and motorized divisions with best generals in panzergroups. I have best available concentration of armor and commanersd in panzergroups (panzer armies), as historically for Germans.(I play in such way for spice dispite dubious results in HOI III).

The best those panzegroups can do under AI is to push their sections of the Frontline for a few provinces faster than Infantry armies on their sectors destabilizing defenders but thats hardly encirclement.

Talking about Barbarosa, what I ever achieved sometimes was by concentration of all armor groups on one part Frontline to form asymmetric front, let say reach Leningrad to the north while south frontline still been at Kiev, and than thrust from the North towards south destabilizing Russian front so they retreat more chaotic all along the front, but thats hardly Encirclement I am talking about.

I am sad that people are defending HOI III AI ?
This way it could stay as it is.:(
 
Last edited:
I had in mind proposal for developer to make this:

Let the player have an option to choose area on the map (provinces) he wishes his AI commanded forces will go trough and only trough thoses provinces.


In a way to intruduce Streamline movement in game

Its just strenghtening current "orders" aproach but this time by obligating AI units to go trough exact provinces.

Explanation: Player defines(chooses) path by defining set of provinces on the map he wants , and when an order given (under "Streamline" behavior) this Ai driven unit will try to use only those provinces to move and fight trough them.It can defend from attacks from other provinces of course. This will enable breaktroughs and encirclement, with all its beauty and risk.


I apologize I used old HOI III map but thats the best I can.--player defines "Streamline" that AI conducts, by defining provinces(in yellow on the map)
which will AI controlled unit use for its attack and movement. For fight and move there is no other provinces for this AI controlled unit, they can only pasively defend from attack dirrected from provinces outside this corridor.

hearts_of_iron_iii_385925_1279864132.jpg
 
Last edited:
In this proposal there is something between manual movement of units from HOI II, but this way entire AI driven command hierarchy will go trough this "passage" that is set by player.This will enable Streamline of units trough this "corridor" and eventual breakthrough and encirclement, after orders given to AI of course.And there is element in it of orders giving from HOI III.

Such manouvre can be cut of course and here is no guarantee AI will be able to conduct it, enemy can even counterattack and encircle players own breakthrough, or breakthrough can stall, fail , but that's the beauty of it I think.
 
Last edited:
I guess that main purpose of the battleplan feature is to put the AI and the player on more equal footing and make it easier for the AI to perform various manoeuvres, so I think that we will see AI encirclements much more often in HOI4 than in HOI3 :).
 
Cybvep said:
I guess that main purpose of the battleplan feature is to put the AI and the player on more equal footing and make it easier for the AI to perform various manoeuvres, so I think that we will see AI encirclements much more often in HOI4 than in HOI3 :).
Click to expand...

I hope to. In HOI III we withnessed quite good defensive behavior of AI (shortening of the front line etc.), so I think now its time to introduce attack behavior in more realistic way.

What ever developer finds to be best to enable player to set for instance entire Army to try to encircle designated spot on the battlefield will be great addition to this game.
This should be intergral part of battleplans.
 
Saint-Exupéry said:
Are you guys absolutely sure we are talking about HOI III game?

I am playing this game for years. Of course I have regular infantry armies and panzergroups in a same rank consisting of only tank and motorized divisions with best generals in panzergroups. I have best available concentration of armor and commanersd in panzergroups (panzer armies), as historically for Germans.(I play in such way for spice dispite dubious results in HOI III).

The best those panzegroups can do under AI is to push their sections of the Frontline for a few provinces faster than Infantry armies on their sectors destabilizing defenders but thats hardly encirclement.

Talking about Barbarosa, what I ever achieved sometimes was by concentration of all armor groups on one part Frontline to form asymmetric front, let say reach Leningrad to the north while south frontline still been at Kiev, and than thrust from the North towards south destabilizing Russian front so they retreat more chaotic all along the front, but thats hardly Encirclement I am talking about.

I am sad that people are defending HOI III AI ?
This way it could stay as it is.:(
Click to expand...
Sure, a modded version of course.
I'll add some screens from my current AAR maybe. Need to play some further.

One thing you should remember is that your idea in your picture is a huuge thingie..
I mean, a province in HoI3 has ~30 square Km.. So even to encircle one prov is quite good actually. ;)
Doing 2-3 is already very big untertaking historically..

You can already now build up fast forces(LARM and MOT/MECH) and put them in one area, then set stance to "blitz" and be sure that the needs of the theatre is fulfilled(no bigger request of units for hat theatre). Having some TAC aircover also helps.
Set objectives along a path for the theatre ai, it will try to go there first..

Hit unpause and sit back and watch the show. You should see also some encirclements with vanilla HoI3.

And the battle-AI is really quite good, I've seen some really amazing moves already. The trigger was most times more units then usually in vanilla are at hand, and the units speed.
If the mobile units are faster as they were in real life and not in HoI3, then your encirclemenst are easier done if the enemy is only having one prov deep defensives or slow units..
It is also that good that if the enemy uses the stance withdrawal or defence, it is quite hard to encircle them because they run faster than you can drive forward.. :D

So my suggestion would be to adjust the units stats a bit and only need some new code for the AI.
But we'll get new code there for sure anyway with the new planer etc.. Also CPU Power is bigger nowadays and we'll have maybe more free to be used by better AI.. :)
 
Saint-Exupéry said:
Are you guys absolutely sure we are talking about HOI III game?

I am sad that people are defending HOI III AI ?
Click to expand...

Maybe they haven't tried playing on the Eastern Front. AI is useless at surrounding and eliminating.



adam_grif said:
The way that the AI freaks out when partisans deploy behind lines sometimes is pretty funny to watch.
Click to expand...

Funny? It makes you totally rage. I created a image in the HOI3 forum for that some time back: Uprising rage
 
I don`t know if AI being bad at surrounding is becouse of AI itself, but rather units it has: in BlackIce mod ai has more divisions (not more men in total) available, so it is more flexible and is better at encircling enemies. When my defense in easten front has collapsed (i mean i am constantly retreating) AI has often encircled my armies much like happened to Germans historically. It being AI i can save most of my force no problem but every now and then i just am unable to retreat in time or break out of the pocket.
But does AI need a lot of improving? Yes. But have i ever seen a good AI? No. HOI3 AI is decent.
 
TheRomanRuler said:
I don`t know if AI being bad at surrounding is becouse of AI itself, but rather units it has: in BlackIce mod ai has more divisions (not more men in total) available, so it is more flexible and is better at encircling enemies. When my defense in easten front has collapsed (i mean i am constantly retreating) AI has often encircled my armies much like happened to Germans historically. It being AI i can save most of my force no problem but every now and then i just am unable to retreat in time or break out of the pocket.
But does AI need a lot of improving? Yes. But have i ever seen a good AI? No. HOI3 AI is decent.
Click to expand...
Just to add, HoI3 AI is decent only in controlling divisions (even though much of the time it is still bad). Is it decent in diplomacy, amph. invasions, spying etc. etc. ? Sadly but no, so there should be improvment much in those areas.

Also are you sure BICE uses new divisions properly? The new divisons is very cool, but i always found AI using them at worst places possible (opposite terrain where they are made for). I am a bit confused now.
 
nikssims said:
Just to add, HoI3 AI is decent only in controlling divisions (even though much of the time it is still bad). Is it decent in diplomacy, amph. invasions, spying etc. etc. ? Sadly but no, so there should be improvment much in those areas.

Also are you sure BICE uses new divisions properly? The new divisons is very cool, but i always found AI using them at worst places possible (opposite terrain where they are made for). I am a bit confused now.
Click to expand...
Good points.

No but that has nothing to do with BICE, it is HOI3 AI, which btw adds up to the list of things AI sucks at.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back