Anyone see this recent BBC three-part series about the lead up to WW1? It was brilliant
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Yes, quite enjoyable. Loved the portrayal of Moltke is a mad dog militarist. The actor who played the welsh wizard was a bit bland though.
Did you notice the guy who played von Moltke was identical to Vyacheslav Molotov?
Was very good television, if a bit one-sided - Britain was rather too cosy, and Berlin was a bit too Mordor-like, although the actor playing the Kaiser was very good (when he wasn't deciding to play Hitler instead).
Depiction of other countries though was absolutely terrible: particularly anything to do with Austria-Hungary, which was just absurdly presented.
Depiction of other countries though was absolutely terrible: particularly anything to do with Austria-Hungary, which was just absurdly presented.
No - he was a Hungarian aristocrat, but old and on good terms with the Imperial circle. And dressed pretty normally for an early-20th C. central European ambassador (looked like this, for reference).
Certainly not a glazed puppet in a pastiche of an 18th century Hussar uniform.
Can anyone expand on the part where Grey accidentally promises British neutrality to the Germans over the phone? Has that any basis in reality?
Couldn't you have mentioned this programme while it was still available on iPlayer?
:angry:
According to the producers it was all based on a very detailed study of the diplomatic correspondence, so anything in the show was probably at least loosely based on reality. Without knowing the specific details of this scene with Grey I couldn't say for sure, but I do know that one of the criticisms later levelled at Grey was that he failed to make Britain's objection to German policy clear enough soon enough. Some at least of the Germans were thus lulled into thinking that Britain wouldn't intervene they way they did - though to be fair there was a lot of wishful thinking involved on their part too.
:angry:According to the producers it was all based on a very detailed study of the diplomatic correspondence, so anything in the show was probably at least loosely based on reality. Without knowing the specific details of this scene with Grey I couldn't say for sure, but I do know that one of the criticisms later levelled at Grey was that he failed to make Britain's objection to German policy clear enough soon enough. Some at least of the Germans were thus lulled into thinking that Britain wouldn't intervene they way they did - though to be fair there was a lot of wishful thinking involved on their part too.
Couldn't you have mentioned this programme while it was still available on iPlayer?
According to the producers it was all based on a very detailed study of the diplomatic correspondence, so anything in the show was probably at least loosely based on reality. Without knowing the specific details of this scene with Grey I couldn't say for sure, but I do know that one of the criticisms later levelled at Grey was that he failed to make Britain's objection to German policy clear enough soon enough. Some at least of the Germans were thus lulled into thinking that Britain wouldn't intervene they way they did - though to be fair there was a lot of wishful thinking involved on their part too.
Do hunt it down, Stephen - I can pretty much guarantee you'd love it. It's the type of show made for regular posters in this subforum. Plus, it has Emperor Palpatine as British Foreign Sec, so win all round
Yes. I had imagined this would be the kind of programme that StephenT would have on DVD, and watch every evening in one sitting while drinking port and smoking his pipe.
I don't smoke, and the last time I drank port was about ten years ago. But otherwise yes.
For us poor Americans who missed this, can someone elaborate? Sounds like a show I'd like to drink port and smoke a pipe while watching!
It's about the July crisis and the diplomatic scene in the last 37 days before the start of the great war. From a British perspective though.
Ok, basically it went like this. A Serbian bloke shot the Austro-Hungarian Archduke. This caused everyone to suddenly want to kill each other. Long story short, France and the UK won, Germany lost, Austria-Hungary ceased to exist, and Europe's premier furniture salesman closed for business. He was replaced by his son, a poultry salesman.
Well, it was made by the BBC, so that's not exactly a big surprise.
In the morning of 1 August 1914, the German ambassador did indeed report to Berlin that Sir Edward Grey had offered British neutrality, and British diplomatic efforts to keep France neutral too, if in return Germany promised not to attack France. In effect, that would mean abandoning Russia to its fate. This caused jubilation in the Kaiser's circle. However, it became apparent a few hours later that the report was wrong.
We don't have a record of the conversation itself, only what people said about it afterwards. Was Grey unclear in what he said, or say the wrong thing by mistake? Did Lichnowsky misunderstand or mishear him? Or did Grey actually plan to abandon Russia?
The conventional opinion among historians is that Lichnowsky misunderstood him. Lichnowsky himself - who was an anglophile and opposed to Germany's war policy - later accepted the blame for the mistake himself in his memoirs.
Others are more hostile to Grey, and believe that he should take the blame for being muddled and confusing in his messages. He became something of a scapegoat for Britain's diplomatic failures in the post-war era; Lloyd George was especially scathing of him.
There is also a revisionist theory that Grey actually did plan to abandon Russia to defeat by Germany, perhaps because he hated the Tsar's govenment. I've also read another account that Grey was playing a dangerous game because the British Cabinet was unable to give him any clear indication on its policy. Grey favoured British intervention on France's side, but on the morning of 1 August, there seemed to be a good chance the Cabinet would refuse to intervene in the war even if Germany invaded France. Faced with that possibility, Grey may have believed that the only way he could still help France at all was by selling out Russia instead, to win a German guarantee of neutrality in the West.
The German threat to Belgium and more importantly, Belgium's refusal to submit changed the situation by the afternoon of that day. The British Cabinet were reluctant to fight for France, but they had a binding treaty with Belgium. Grey was thus able to take a much more robust line with Lichnowsky at their afternoon meeting since he was now confident his govenment would be willing to back up his warnings with force.
But this doesn't add up. If the Kaiser was jubilant that Britain apparently announced it's intention to stay out of the war and keep France out of the war, how come the next logical step for him was to...invade France anyway and in doing so, invade Belgium, which he knew perfectly well would be a casus belli for Britain no matter what happened before?
Doombunny, ?. The only Hapsburg I've ever seen sell furniture was Gisa Hapsburg in "Midnight in the garden of good and evil", but who is the poultry salesman? The only chicken farmer that comes to mind is Himmler, and that's pushing up the timetable a bit.
Stephen, Well stated as always.
So, in particular, it's the diplomatic conveyance between the governments of Cousin Willie and Cousin Georgie regarding whether or not the "confusion" was engineered or accidental following Gavrillo Principe's hunting party at the behest of Serbian Intelligence in downtown Sarejevo?
interesting . . . did they come to a conclusion, or was it left up to the viewer to decide?
Stephen, Well stated as always.
So, in particular, it's the diplomatic conveyance between the governments of Cousin Willie and Cousin Georgie regarding whether or not the "confusion" was engineered or accidental following Gavrillo Principe's hunting party at the behest of Serbian Intelligence in downtown Sarejevo?
interesting . . . did they come to a conclusion, or was it left up to the viewer to decide?
Quite specifically, WWI military involved large numbers of reservists using the railroads and fledgling mechanized transports to see WHO could mobilize and get their troops to the frontier first. That, and the German High Command was absolutely ACHING to implement the Schlieffen Plan as Moltke the Younger was "overeager" to replicate his uncle's, Moltke the Elder, success against France in 1870 after Bismark baited France into declaring war.